GW is showing off some of the awesome new Tyranid rules. Wow, so much great stuff and we’re still getting used to Eldar!
What do you think so far? Which is your favorite Hive Fleet adaptation?
GW is showing off some of the awesome new Tyranid rules. Wow, so much great stuff and we’re still getting used to Eldar!
What do you think so far? Which is your favorite Hive Fleet adaptation?
The special rule changes will really make the army more forgiving! Good things. I’m not really a huge fan of any of the Hive Fleet traits. They are powerful to meh, I was just hoping for something a bit more Tyranid themed.
Tyranid will really need to be in close (not necessarily melee), and have multiple waves to throw at people to accomplish that. Their long range shooting just isn’t going to cut it with all of the -1 or worse to hit out there and no abilities army wide to get bonuses to hit (unless I’m totally missing something.)
On the other hand, an army with full on 6++ FNP or always in cover (or mixed and match) may create a lot of problems for some armies too.
I can tell you from lots of experience that Kronos with the re-roll 1’s to hit is really solid. However, of course there’s lots more to see, but they’re all solid.
Hey Reece, any thoughts on Zoanthropes and Psychic Barrage? They seem pretty crap tbh, the minimun squad size of 3 means you still have to pay 120 points per smite (or 160 per double smite) where stuff like Spiritseers and Primaris Psykers get more for way less.
I agree, can’t see the points efficiency in zoanthropes at this stage
Psychic Barrage is intended to work the same as stuff like Linebreaker Barrage (with Vindicators) and whatnot. It’s a more powerful effect you get from giving their normal abilities up for a turn, although I feel like the 3″ radius is a tad on the small side.
How good Zoeys in general are will depend a lot on their pricing and whether Nids need the psychic utility.
I can’t figure out if psychic barrage shuts down all 9 zoanthropes, or just the 3 who use the power.
Zoanthropes are underrated though, 3++ with 3 wounds and T4 for 40 points isn’t bad at all in my book, and with Synapse, SitW thrown in… they won’t destroy a Knight in a turn, but they are super annoying to chew through wound by wound
Interesting, I had the opposite opinion when I read the Hive Fleet rules. To me they felt very tyranid-like. Even some of the standard copy-and-paste tactics like 6+ FnP had a Tyranid twist where it requires 6″ synapse range. The rest all seemed to fit very well with how Tyranids play and I could see them all being very useful. Re-roll charges for Trygon armies, wound re-rolls of 1 for high strength armies, re-roll hits for swarms, etc etc. They all seemed to fit well with the Tyranid theme.
Yeah, just my gut reaction. I didn’t feel the traits alone offered really interesting ways to field them, etc.
And yeah, I do agree Leviathan really hits the nail on the head for what a Hive fleet rule (adaptation?) should be.
The key the competitive builds of bugs will be:
1- can they field any long range shooting effectively? Re-rolling 1’s help, but if you are a 4+ or 5+ shooting into a -1 bubble, does it help enough?
2- Can they survive the turn after they charge? Yes, multi-charging is great, but if you only get a few units (or if they are flyers) the bugs will get shredded the next turn.
to be clear- this will be the challenge (and fun) of playing bugs, not a death-knell that makes us retire the army until the next Codex!
I’m interested to see what additional tools will be out there to help, and I’m a bit disappointed at some of the (unconfirmed) rumors that 2 or more of the stratagems will use CP and reinforcement points. But I would just avoid those builds anyway in competitive play.
The good: synapse is what the commisar is no longer. The bad: you have to eat the nearest unit or suffer a penalty out of synapse. Its pretty punishing, especially with current character assasins. I think 2 trgon primes and a hive tyrant with tyrant guard are pretty much mandatory for the current meta unless swarmlord can take some bodyguards hes gonna die to easy still. The real question is how will tyranids firepower deal with “concealed” armies until they make assault. Overall from what I have read here, find a way to synapse everything and hope they dont die to shooting/ psykers. Keeping fingers crossed tyranids need a decent codex.
Nids are good vs Alaitoc or what have you because they just run up and punch them! Especially with Swarmy giving them the double move.
Swarmy is decent but the guy I played at SCO claimed he couldnt take the bodyguard? Im looking up all the color schemes online, behemoth is a good trait and a cool paint scheme. Considering behemoth assault units with jorg shooters for that needed cover save.
And some kraken for units that can advance and charge. Gotta squeeze in those three for my planned list by the 2019 LVO
From what I can tell Swarmlord has all the keywords necessary to be protected by tyrant guard.
Well then the guy you played was claiming something that is incorrect.
Tyrant Guard take away wounds from anything with the “hive tyrant” keyword assuming they both have the same “hive fleet” designation.
Swarmlord checks both those boxes in the exact same way Hive Tyrants do.
just to pile on- at least in the Index there is no way the Swarmlord can’t use Tyrant guard.
Depending on the new mechanics, I am probably going to invest in a swarmlord/ foot tyrant depending on efficiency. Tyrant guard on paper seem extremely reliable and rumor is they are getting a minor buff. Thanks for clarification, as Im still building my tyranid army.
What armies exactly are you concerned about which can snipe out/assassinate all the many synapse providers in Tyranid army?
Assasins, psychic powers that can target visible units, sniper rifles, Any smite spam because avarage on 2 dice is 7s
Also outflanking units such as tallarn can do some serious damage midngame.
I specially like the Kraken, gives a lot of mobility and board control. Great.
Jormungandr also looks pretty good for mixed assault/cc models. Less speed, but a lot more durability, to a safe advance whith some shooting until engaging the enemy.
Leviathan and Behemoth look solid. Leviathan is a safe bet with a lot of synapse, while repeating charges is a nice bonus for bashy ‘nids.
Hydra and Kronos doesn’t look too good for lists with just one fleet, but whith those new synapse/IB rules is not that punishing to combine multiple fleets in one list, and they compensate pretty good each other: Hydra for the swarms, Kronos for the shooty support.
Gorgon seems a bit weak to me, when comparing to the otthers. Perhaps it will get a better trait or relic. Not terrible anyway, and even then.
Overall I’m happy whith these adaptations and looking forward to try some games whith all of them. A lot of new ways to play our stuff.
Yeah, good point. Nids really like to use multiple fleets, IMO.
Kronos gunline with either Behemoth alpha strike or Kraken cc horde turn 2 charges.
They like to use multiple fleets, but each hive fleet can’t benefit from the a different hive fleet’s synapse. Seems like a tough trade-off
Yeah, it most assuredly is. However, that is in keeping with other armies. Bobby G only works on Ultramarines, etc. It’s just a new feeling for Nid players.
From a fluff perspective, it’s lame that Hive Fleets are even working together at all!
But I like the game balance perspective splitting synapse into hive Fleet detachment. It should lead to real specialization of your detachments, which really isn’t a bad thing.
With IB not so bad and with larger synapse range, I am guessing that overall it’s a wash or a slight improvement from the index.
Speaking of multiple Hive Fleets, would there be other acceptable ways to distinguish them besides paint scheme, like SM have to do? Specifically, I’m thinking “Everything without Fly is Jormungandr, everything with Fly is {whatever}.”
Honestly it depends on your local TO but at our events, no. We require some means of easily telling them apart. The wings things would be OK if literally ONLY models with wings were in 1 detachment. But if there is any mixing at all it is not OK.
The thing we keep saying is to do something to the bases. Something simple is fine, or even painting some pattern or mark or whatever on those in a given detachment. We have to enforce this for things to be fair.
Yeah, this would be a no exceptions split. Everything with Fly is a single non-Jormungandr Hive Fleet, everything without Fly is Jormungandr.
I’m thrilled with the spoilers so far. Looking forward to more oif them. I have waited for my Nids to get their Codex anxiously.
In contrast to many other “subfaction traits”, these look kinda well balanced vs. each other
Kronos looks good for backfield artillery but jormungandr looks to be the best overall trait. We’ll have to see what relics, stratagems, characters, and warlord traits come with each hive fleet.
Leviathan may actually be the best trait, It gives Jorg a run for it’s money… But Behemoth is way more my playstyle, 😉
This might sound weird, but I just want to make a biovore list now that they hit on 6s if they move and are out of synapse to flood the board with spores, and maybe take the Jormungandr trait for extra durability. I think Biovores actually want to miss, I hope they don’t get nerfed.
From what I’ve heard they remain unchanged.
The Kronos Soul Hunter thing looks just awful… until you know there is a stratagem that makes opponents take psychic tests on 1d6 (1d6-1 if in range of SitW)…
Not going to auto-win you tournaments, but its one of those cool things which may catch an opponent off guard (and since you choose your warlord trait before each battle, it’s not a sunk cost if you plan on going Kronos anyway.)
I like those sorts of interesting tactical items in the toolbox.
The special weapons aren’t bad. I could see fielding any of the three if I already had the weapons in my army. Not amazing, but cool little boosts.
I’m not a fan of the rules which give you a bonus only after you take a wound. Once you start putting wounds on a Tyranid, you are removing it from the table usually! The 4++ on a Hive Tyrant may help, especially if he has a 5++ or 6++ FNP backing it up… but high risk, high reward there.
a hive tyrant can ensure losing only one or 2 wounds with his tyrant guards (3 may not be enough to ensure safety), and so from then on will be tough as a nail to bring down. But without them yeah I agree with you, pointless stuff.
Pointless stuff for anything but a hive tyrant.
Could have been great if the tyranid big bugs had a way to mitigate stat decrease like guard and eldar have
I guess there is also a decent chance you take a wound in overwatch as well, if you are charging the right things.
Hey Reecius,
Does a failed charge count as having charged for the ‘counts as cover’ trait?
Reading the core rules I would think no?
In the rulebook its called the charge phase. After you pick targets and overwatch resolves, you make the charge move. A failed charge is still counted as an attempted charge so Im guessing you are going for Jorg? A failed charge still should count as a unit that charged since the exact wording is the charge phase.
A Jorg heavy list should be midfield with heavy amounts of small arms fire IMO to fully exploit the cover. Kraken/ Behemoth are sounding like most reliable units to charge with depending on update on Tyranid unit mechanics.
If you read the rules I would disagree. For a start there is specific mention of ‘failed charge’. In the fight phase it also says:
1. Choose Unit to Fight With
Any unit that charged or has models within 1″ of an
enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase.
That implies that a unit that ‘charged’ is one that made it within 1″. Otherwise you could activate and pile in a unit that failed a charge.
+ Wookie.
I am so excited for this Codex. I can’t wait to get a chance to play with my toys again and be competitive. I also admit to being super excited to see how LVO ends up with codecies getting released right up until the tournament. Seems like this is almost a no meta / change on the fly / meta environment. I’m not playing in the championships but I’m be there and watching excitedly.
I dont know, I have a feeling that this codex will be the weakest of all the release until now. I dont think they will have the tools to deal with a wall of brimstones/conscripts and not die after that.
Mediocre “legion traits” and relics. Some are very situational.
At least we have now a cheap HQ, some tournaments dont allow forgeworld stuff for the Malanthrope. Also we dont care too much about synapse.
I hope I dont have to throw my Nids for another edition in competitive scene.
Conscripts and brims have already started to deal with themselves after repeated nerfs. The nerf to Commissars was huge in terms of how many conscripts they can save so you’ll start to see them get shifted a lot easier now. A decent-sized squad of say Hormagaunts isn’t all that expensive and can pretty easily deal with other large chaff units in CC.
Hormagaunts are not that good against chaff. 30 of them will kill about 13 conscripts, or 7 brimstones. Note that those models cost 3, close to half the cost of the gaunt.
Not saying they’re useless, they’re relatively cheap and fast, but for sure they are not good dealing with large chaff units.
Hormagants are amazing as a tie up unit, they are not really there to kill shit. People miss that. They are 100% a board control and disruption unit which they are amazing at.
I’m really not seeing a lot of ways to counter the -1 to strike, or the hordes screening the backfield and protecting big guns. Unless I’m missing something, a gun line with some layered deep strike protection (scouts plus conscripts, etc.) is going to be a tough nut to crack for Tyranid of almost any build.
Tyranid armies will need to keep coming in waves, and there are not a lot of units you can just plant in your backfield and be successful shooting long range all game with.
I do think they will be fun to play as and against.
They have some strats and rules you haven’t seen yet, but trust me, haha, they have NO issues with clearing screens =)
Man, I keep thinking about Pyrovores here!
I have 6 Lictors and 2 Tervigons. I’m also hoping they are both useful (for the Lictor, useful for something other than filling out a brigade or unlocking stratagems.)
Lictors are so cool, I’m just having a hard time doing work with them this edition as one man armies (with no synapse or SitW…)
How is no one talking about the stupid awesome Kronos strat that shuts down psychic powers?
It might be just me, but I think that you have to spend a lot for than combo. First you have to pic Kronos as a hive fleet, which isn’t my favourite as I prefer keeping mobile, then you have spend a CP to deny a power, which does short to nothing against smite spam (where loosing a smite isn’t that much of a deal) and is only worth it against key powers. Also you have to be in range, which is kind of easy, but your opponent can very well try to take advantage of that. Magnus for example can easily cast Weaver of Fates and Warptime out of range and still have pretty good odds at charging something afterwards. So basically you’re sacrificing a lot for a nasty trick, which might be worth it in a specific meta, but I don’t think we’ll see it that much.
Depends on your definition of “spending.” 1 CP definitely is not very expensive to shut down a power. Regardless of whether its just smite or something else. Sure it requires Hive Fleet Kronos but you can always break up your army however you want and just include a few Kronos units in one smaller detachment. It’s not as if you have to take an entirely Kronos army if you don’t want to.
Plus, in combination with the WT it can totally deny a psyker and potentially even kill them outright.
Kronos is the automatic choice if you are setting up some bugs to sit back and blast, so you can get psychic denial and some longrange support together.
I’m not sure just how useful the long range support ends up at the end of the game in a -1 to hit meta, so maybe it’s better to focus on things like Hive Guard? Either way, Kronos is easily the best fleet to take as a small detachment.
I like to take a Spearhead detachment of them.
Tyrgon Prime, sir =)
Even better, I do believe the Trygon Prime doesn’t count as having moved when set up via burrows. So you can pop up, shoot lightning with rerolls, and potentially charge.
I don’t have the Trygon rule in front of me, but in general if you arrive from reserves you count as having moved.
It may be that the Trygon rule overrides that, but I haven’t really noticed as his weapons are assault anyway… Never an issue before Kronos!
Eh, who cares?! If you need to shut down psychic powers then that is one way to do it. However, there are more but I must remain silent on how for just a bit longer….=P
It’s awesome, no doubt. There are good reasons to field Kronos anyway, too
It’s seemingly really devastating to Eldar, who need that second die to get a lot of their powers off, especially if you can get your -1 in play.
It might not come up that useful but in a third of your games, but it’s free if you are using Kronos anyway, and when you need to keep one psychic power on lockdown all day…
Well, remember, you also have Shadows, making many powers impossible to cast.
SitW: That’s why I mentioned -1 above.
No matter how awesome it is, it won’t play into all your games, I’m estimating it will be big in about 1/2 to 1/3 of your games. :
1- not all armies use psychic abilities
2- Some armies will just use backfield psykers, and not necessarily be within 24 inches.
But as I said- it’s a free stratagem you don’t have to use on a Hive Fleet that is otherwise useful- so the battles it doesn’t come into play don’t come with much opportunity cost.
You won’t use it all the time, but against lists that lean heavily on one or two powers (like Sanctuary on a GMDK or Weaver on Magnus) it will put a huge damper on them.
I wonder what will happen with the big terrible WS4+ monsters… I mean Haruspexes, Toxicrenes and Maleceptors. Specially Haruspexes and Toxicrenes, they need to bring something different to ‘fexes to compete with them.
More specially the Haruspex, it needs a TON of improvement. Even halving its cost, it would still be a terrible option… I think it needs something like WS3+ and cost around 180.
Yeah, unfortunately nothing will happen to them from what it looks like, except going down in points. Being too costly was only half their problems. Looks like narrative play only, if you’re into that. A shame, really wanted to not be punished for fielding Haruspexes and Toxicrenes.
The adaptations and stratagems will nudge them a bit into the right direction, but I’m afraid it wont be enough.
Is sad to read that. They’re cool models, but there is no reason to field them instead of more ‘fexes.
Same problem with the Tervigon… 4+ on a degrading platform is awful. I’m hoping Tervi prices go the correct direction or else they have some more surviveability/ synergy.
Right now their synergy is that they really boost gaunts, but at the expense of being an easily removed target that obliterates those same gaunts on the way out the door!
Kinda nuts at the cost of 60 gaunts… it looks like you are always better off just fielding more gaunts.
That’s Index, of course. I have seen no Tervigon rumors at all, strangely.
The main problem I see with Haruspexes and Toxicrenes is that they’re just close combat Carnifexes, with almost the same ofensive, a little bigger, but degrading, and lot more expensive. They really need a redesign comming with a new role.
The Tervigon is bad, but at least it has a different primary role. If it gets cheaper, it will be fine.
A Haruspex has a bunch of advantages over a Carnifex- it’s getting way more attacks (thanks to tripling up), it can heal wounds (potentially three per battle round), and it comes with a stronger statline (T8 being a big notch up.) I don’t know if it’s _worth_ the extra cost, but it does at least have stuff going for it.
Not really, at least with the index. The Haruspex can make 4d3 tongue attacks +extra attacks if triggered, while the ‘fex can make 4d3 tail attacks +1 whith the talons.
Now, Haruspex attacks have more S, that’s sure. But there’s the chance to hit on 3+ whith the ‘fexes, thanks to OOE. Meanwhile, Haruspex profile degrades quick to WS 5+.
Of course, the diference in durability must make the Haruspex more expensive, but 1 Haruspex won’t stay alive longer than 2 ‘fexes.