Replay of the show in blog post!
Show Notes
6-15-15
Intro
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News
- Wargames Con is right around the corner! Last chance to snag those tickets and see us down in Austin.
- Total War, Warhammer is looking pretty bad ass.
- Dark Angels teaser video releases, along with a Librarian in Terminator armor. Look very cool and that means we’ve got Dark Angels inbound!
- TGITG show off a large size of Harry the Baby Hippo.
- A set of 2mm scale Roman Buildings from Birgade Models. They look awesome.
- Be sure to join us for DoW tonight, if you are one of our Twitch Subscribers! Going to be a great time, 2pm PST.
- The Court of Owls is now available for the Batman miniatures line. They look pretty awesome.
Upcoming ITC Events
- We’re going to let the Space marine Battle Company be an exception to the ITC rules as we believe the intent is for it to operate as a new formation unto itself. Good to go for Wargames Con!
- Granite City WAAAGH!! Fest, Waite Park, MN, June 20th, 2015
- Wargames Con, Austin, TX, June 18-21, 2015
- RTT 2 at Crusader’s Retreat, Phoenix, AZ, 2015
Rumors: The Rumor Section is gathered from the web and is not in any way information we receive from any manufacturer nor is it necessarily accurate. This section of the podcast is intended for entertainment purposes only.
- Dark Angels on the way! Looks like they will be getting the Space Marine treatment with Grav weapons and some of the missing vehicles.
Rant Session
- Skyhammer Annihilation Force. Is it broken, or not?
Tactics Corner
Rules Lawyer
- Iyanden and Craftworld Eldar.
Completed Commissions
List Review
Again my idea is Ethereal will go with the kroot and the buffmander goes with the missile crisis suits and give tank hunter/monster hunter/ignore cover and broadsides go in the bunker. Other suits help grab maelstrom cause they are troops.
Farsight Enclaves CAD
HQ
– Ethereal
– Ethereal
Elites
– Riptide – ION, Earth Caste Array, Early Override, Stim Pack
– Riptide – ION, Early Caste Array, Stim Pack, Velocity Tracker
Troops
– 10x Kroot, Kroot Hound
– 2x Crisis Suit – 2 fusion, Target lock
– 2x Crisis Suit – 2 Burst Cannons
– 3x Crisis Suit – 2 missile pods, 5x markerlight Drones
Heavy Support
Skyray- Blacksun
Skyray – Blacksun
3 Missilesides – Smart missles and Early Warning
Allied Tau
HQ
Commander – Command and Control Node, Multi- Spectrum, Puretide Chip, Iridium Suit
Troop
10 Kroot – Kroot hound
Fortification
Imperial Bunker – Void shield
If we voted on scatter lasers, I think we should get to vote on the absurdity of the Battle Company. 10+ free obsec dedicated transports is not really comparable to summoning or gaunt spawning.
Didn’t have time due to Wargames Con. If it proves to be too much we can reassess it. I honestly don’t think it will be, though.
Except is not really that competitive/scary. 10 naked 5x Marine squads a Captain and a Chaplain, costs 880 points and you have to take 165 points of naked Scouts to get 10 TL HBs. 1045 points of un-equipped Space Marines to get 10 TL HB Razorbacks.
Why are you taking scouts? They are not a part of the demi company
But you have to take an Auxiliary to get the Gladius Strike Force and free transports is a Command Benefit for the Gladius Strike Force. There is no Battle Company there is only the Gladius Strike Force.
yeah but why would you take scouts when there are much better options to take
I’m just saying that’s minimum you can spend to get the free transports. If there are other Auxiliary choices you prefer obviously you take those instead.
There is only ZOOL!!
Another person that underestimates scouts!
I don’t underestimate scouts. It’s just when your already taking 6 units of tactical they aren’t needed
Well then in answer of your question of “why?” They just got better and they’re the cheapest auxiliary choice, just ahead if the speeder + 2 whirlwinds group.
I think they’re plenty worth it. The formation benefits are quite tame though.
The ITC rules guys don’t really like messing with codex rules. If they did, wraithknights would cost more, scat bikes would cost more, formations would probably be assigned point values or flat out banned etc.
(Personally I’m hoping GW keeps up their trend of horrible game design so that the ITC guys eventually decide to take tournament game balance into their own hands. I trust experienced players and TO’s WAAAY more than GW.)
Horrible game design? In the most balanced and diverse edition yet? The edition where the same faction/list hasn’t won two GTs in a row?
Diverse != balanced
Just because there are several strong lists at the top instead of say…one, doesn’t mean that there aren’t plenty of “have-nots” in the game right now, including entire armies. I’d be alright with it if the have-nots were just older books, but the first wave of 7th are among them. Those guys are just boned for at least a year or more.
There’s a reason you don’t see the same list win multiple large Swiss tourneys in a row.
In Swiss style tournaments it’s actually not very likely for the strongest list run by the strongest player to win. It’s more likely than anyone else winning, sure, but still not very likely. A plurality of chance. Random matchups can make or break tourney performance in Swiss.
The only real way to determine best army would be to do round robin across all players with multiple games per match, and declare the highest winning % the winner, but in 40k that’s hilariously impractical. A large tournament would take months of 4-game days.
In a Swiss of say…30 people, I’d say the odds of a guy who is running the strongest list and is the strongest player present probably has the same odds of winning as a 7 being rolled on 2d6. It’s the most likely result, but not all that likely among all results.
No Need to vote the itc already bans it. You can’t have two of the same detachment.
It doesn’t make any sense, 3 Detachments, No repeating detachemnts is the ruling. Combi-detachments were ruled a single detachment, which means the formations that make it up can’t count. If a combi-detachment is one detachment then none of the formations that make it up can count towards the no repeats because they’re not considered detachments for the restrictions (otherwise they’d count against the 3).
That doesn’t make sense either. It means I can have a gladius detachment made up of two Demi company formations and add a third Demi company formstion to a list because it doesn’t count toward the formations limit and still only count as two detachments for itc.
Why is that so crazy? That’s 1395 points minimum of naked Space Marines with 8 free transports. You’re going to clog the table in 3+ armour 5 marine squads with 8 tl hb and 3 hb as their only heavy weapons? Any other ObSec army with a decent number of troops is going to take First Blood and warlord with no trouble, contest the objectives and blow your squads off the table every turn.
Seriously go build a decent list with the “Battle Company” that can be considered a TAC list with good odds of winning a tournament.
Plus it’s the only consistent way to rule combi-detachments, either their sub-detachments count or they don’t.
They didn’t intend to ban anything by making that ruling though. Thus the exception. Just like they didn’t intend to ban imperial knights, or wraithguard/knights.
Not sure why people are so upset when there’s a very clear consistent precedent that they’ve followed: They don’t want to outright ban options. They just don’t want things spammed with no variety.
A battle company is about the apex of fluffy lists, and thanks to the mechanics, is actually pretty good.
Not calling anyone out specifically, but it SEEMS like some people just want to make sure it’s illegal so they don’t have to play against it.
Technically you are not banning anything since you are always allowed a single Demi company formation. However I didn’t know they count combine formstion detachments as 1 detachment. I thought the intention of making formations unique was to prevent spamming things such as necron harvest formations. Spamming two Demi companies is a pretty straight forward spam too. It just so happens to be tac and Razorbacks. I don’t think this list is going to own tournaments. It’s just silly to make an exception for space marines though.
Battle Company doesn’t have a data slate so it’s not a formation/detachment. It is literally a Command Benefit (like ObSec, or re-rolling Warlord Traits) from taking specific choices in a Gladius Strike Force. It’s pretty cut and dried by RAW.
Can an indepent character be attached to the sky hammer and assault with it?
The rules say “assault squads” several times.
If independent characters can join them it break this formation wide open.
The formation benefits apply only to the models in the formation. ICs, even when joined to the squads, are not part of the formation and do not benefit from its rules.
Nope “While A Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposed, though he still follows the rules for characters”
Sorry, but he is part of the assault squad, therefore allowed to assault first turn aslong as he has deepstirike
Pg 166, under Special Rules:
“When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.”
Except, he is counted as part of the unit for all rules purposes.
HE IS PART OF THE ASSAULT SQUAD
therefore, he can assault from deepstrike. The rule is not lost if an IC joins
“Unless specified in the rule itself, the unit’s special rules are NOT conferred upon the Independent Character…”
So what does the rule that allows them to assault from Deep Strike say? Does it grant the unit a USR? Because the IC wouldn’t get that unless the rule specifically says so. Or does it say “all units in this formation” because then the IC would be part of a unit in the formation. If it says “all models” then he doesn’t get it because he’s not a model in the formation.
it says “And the assault squads can charge from deepstrike.” It is an assault squad, he is in an assault squad, it means he can assault from deepstrike.
I have the Dataslate BTW
It sounds like it’s giving the assault squad a permission and not a special rule, so I’m not sure the special rules tidbit applies.
Yeah, if it’s not granting a USR and simply states the Assault Squad can assault after deep strike as a formation rule, then he is a part of the Assault Squad and can charge.
So when I join an IC to a unit in a formation, he automatically gains all special rules from that formation? Baller, I’m sure I can abuse that.
This would also mean I can take any Necron IC I want and attache him to a Decurion unit and he auto gets a 4+ reanimation proto. and any other benefits of the formation.
I dont think so
Except abuse puppy. It says models in the neuron gain 4+ rp. Not units. This special if ally says unit.
“Don’t leave home without a Storm Shield and Invisibility”
Thunderwolf Cavalry Proverb
That was kind of a dick move to kill off Iyanden. I hope the same doesn’t happen to Daemonkin when the new CSM or Daemons codex drops.
Daemon kin is a full codex. Iyanden was not so I wouldn’t worry about that
Yeah but what if points change for any of the units? Or rules for marks or Daemons of a certain type? Maybe it wouldn’t be completely shelved but an update to CSM could make individual units so bad when compared to the new codex that it would be effectively invalidated. I’m not trying to be a fear mongerer it just seems shady to kill off Iyanden when it’s still so young. I get updating the codices, trying to wash the taste of 6th edition out of everyone’s collective mouths, but invalidating a supplement without replacing it is a dick move and makes me think they would do it with actual codex releases.
If you buy units from Codex Daemonkin you pay the points that codex lists, if you buy them from Codex CSM you pay the points listed in that codex.
Besides can’t you pretty much build the Iyanden supplement using the Warhost? Don’t they have Wraith formations?
The Warhost has two detachments with Wraith units in it, the Wraithhost (3 units of little guys, a WLord, and a WKnight plus a Spiritseer) and your choice of a Hemlock/Wraithlord/Wraithknight. It’s not particularly good for building an Iyanden army.
Why would it? Iyanden was a supplement, Daemonkin is a Codex. You need Codex: Eldar to play Iyanden, you don’t need Codex: CSM or Daemons to play Codex: Daemonkin.
Hope this means tzeentch will get point cost reductions prior to csm coming out.
Khorne daemonkin could have used some of the rampant cost reductions we have seen in other recent books. 30 poit possessed, gross.
Hey Reece and FLG crew, will you guys be creating an Ad Mech category for the ITC, or are they going remain Agents of the Imperium?
We will, yes. Just been mega busy.
It’s a good thing Space Marines get more special unique snowflake exceptions to the rules.
Can I have my Firebase Support Cadre count as costing zero points? It’s pretty clear that’s what they intended for it to be.
Crons eldar and IK all got special exceptions that made them change the rules first. At this point it’s not really special treatment.
Crons and Eldar forced changes to the rules of ITC as a whole (that applied to everyone) because of new features in their codex. The “change” for ‘Crons, for example, also affects Eldar, Daemonkin, and Space Marines.
IK got change because the army was literally unplayable, and it’s still heavily nerfed.
SM got a special exception that only applies to them because players _rilly rilly_ wanted to use one particular army setup even though it was illegal by the stated rules of ITC.
And the army setup was never intended to be banned. They just didn’t know about it yet when they made that rule. I guarantee you if your fire base support cadre could voltron together to do something special, they would let the tau have it. That seems to be how they roll.
Then why can’t Necrons have double harvests in Decurion?
It’s apples and oranges. Two units of Wraiths does not equate to a new combined formation with a new name and new rules which also happens to be definitely true to the fluff of a Necorn army as a Battle Company is to Marines. They really are not the same thing.
It’s not a new formation Reece it’s a Command Benefit. The only formations/detachments in a “Battle Company” are the two specific demi-companies, an Auxiliary choice and the Gladius Strike Force they make up. The “Battle Company” is just a rule that grants free transports like a CAD grants re-rolls for the warlord trait.
If the “Battle Company” is a detachment then show me the CarFax!… I mean Show me the data slate! 😛
Lol, I concede that point for sure, there is no Dataslate (if only there were, sheesh, make this so much easier), but we see this as a unique circumstance and adjusted. As we allowed Crons to count their Decurion as a single detachment (which was the special treatment they got) this is the sort of tip of the hat to Marines’ special goodie. If we get more combo-formations, so to speak, we will treat them the same way.
Its only apples to oranges when you apply power levels. This isn’t about power levels, this is about applying the army construction rules that you’ve established evenly. Its not fair, at least IMO, to say to the Necron player, hey you can’t have more wraiths in the Decurion, but your space marine opponent can have 12-14 objective secured drop pods because a base space marine isn’t as powerful as a wraith is.
Not trying to be attacky here, just trying to express how I feel about this exception to your rule set <3
You can take a huge number of ObSec Drop Pods without the Battle Company, albeit not at the low price point of zero points. However, you can also include more powerful units than Tactical Squads, for example, as well.
I think people forget that In reality that ITC belongs to Frontline Gaming. They can change it.
We could do far worse in terms of TO’s. We could have GW actually writing tournament Errata.
I for one appreciate them taking point for everyone’s benefit, even if they make some calls I don’t agree with.
“I can do anything I want and you can’t stop me” is not a great way to win people over to using your system.
Reece you have some pretty extreme tolerance for brokenness IMO. I’m quite curious to see you make up a hypothetical formation that would actually be just about right at “the line” for where you consider it outright broken, at least for the current meta game.
ITs cause he knows that one persons broken is someones army
After playing a lot of this stuff, I guess I just have a higher tolerance level for it than some folks do. It’s all relative, really.
Tau list is illegal. You cant have 2 Earth casts, its a signature system
Thanks for the correction, I couldn’t remember that one off of the top of my head.
Why does the GW website show the RW land Speeder with all its weapons twin linked? Find it at the DA Battleforce.
Sammael’s Land Speeder option has TL HB & AC, iirc.