Sometimes a rule is so bad, it’s terribad. This article has been updated, some good conversation and a lot of questions came up, I wanted to address them.
I have absolutely no idea what anyone was thinking when this rule was written. I keep re-reading it hoping I missed something…..
- Are we just being negative and upset? No, we are honestly looking for a solution to this as so far, it feels like a major detriment.
- We are sure good lists will arise out of the book, and that once we work out the nuance of this codex we’ll find ways to get around Mob Rule, but as of now, this rule hurts badly.
- Is it better than simply failing morale? Yes, of course, but that is a silly suggestion. A unit that costs over 200pts with Ld7 and is meant to go into assault would be unplayable without morale control, which is why they used to get Fearless or have their Ld be the unit size if over 7. That helped to keep the Orks in the fight immensely.
So, what is Mob Rule? It is a rule that Orks have wherein if they fail a morale or pinning check, they roll on the Mob Rule table, and then see what happens.
- On a 1, they fail, unless they were locked in combat.
- On a 2-3 if they have a character they take D6 strength 4 hits and then passes the test. No character and they fail the test.
- On a 4-6 if there are 10 or more Orks, they take D6 strength 4 hits and then pass the test, but if there are less than 10 Orks they fail.
Let’s recap, shall we?
Every single time you fail a morale or pinning check, you beat the crap out of yourself or run away/get pinned. Why is this so bad? With a 6+ save, any wound is basically a dead Ork. And, you can end up taking multiple morale/pinning tests a phase and watch your units destroy themselves. In my first game with Orks, I killed 22 of my own Boyz. That’s not including Boyz that got killed from exploding vehicles, that is strictly from my own guys killing themselves.
- How you can you take multiple morale checks in a phase? You take a check each time you are Tank Shocked. That can happen multiple times in a phase.
- You take pinning each time a unit does one or more wounds to you with a pinning weapon (can happen multiple times in a phase if multiple units with pinning weapons wound you).
- If you take over 25% casualties in any phase (which can be triggered by a morale check taken earlier in the phase which causes you to hurt yourself through Mob Rule).
- So, you could get tank shocked (morale check), take a test per tank shock hurt yourself enough for a Morale check and go Mob Rule again.
- You could get hit by a pinning weapon (another check), test and hit yourself with Mob Rule, subsequently go down below 25% casualties from beating yourself up and then take a test again for casualties suffered in the phase.
- Some folks are mistaking this to mean you can take more than one 25% casualty check per phase which is not true, but you CAN take multiple Mob Check rules per phase.
With average ld7, you have a 42% chance of failing a Ld test, roughly 1/2. So, each time you get Tank Shocked, you can test. Then, if you get hit by pinning weapons, you might test for each incident. Take 25% casualties? Test. In a vehicle that explodes? Pinning and possibly morale, too. Each time, you take D6 wound or just run away….it’s brutal, your units just melt. The best is when you are in a vehicle that explodes, you fail your pin check, kick your own ass, force a morale check, then kick your own ass again. I had one unit hit itself 11 times from a single exploding Trukk. 5 from the pin check, 6 from the morale check.
- Also, Fear checks….wow. Orks are going to HATE these. Monstrous Creatures, and anything causes Fear will just be brutally effective against Orks. Note, Fear checks don’t trigger Mob Rule, but they do make you go WS1, which against Ld7 Orks, is really punishing.
Routinely, after a Trukk exploded, I watched 6-9 of my Orks die. Losing the old Ramshackle, plus exploding vehicles getting more punishing is REALLY painful for armies with low armor like Orks.
There is no safety in big units either, you just become a bigger liability. 30 Orks get tank shocked? Might be killing some of your Boyz or even running away. These big units become more of a risk as you pour points into them.
Boss Poles let you reroll the Mob Rule result, but it doesn’t help a ton. The problem is the table itself.
I keep hunting for ways to get around it but there aren’t many. You can take a bunch of Warbosses in 30 man units to go for Ld9 which helps a lot but doesn’t fix the issue. It reduces the odds of failure but increases the penalty when you do fail as the unit has more points and HQ assets sunk into it. Plus, you use up all your HQ slots to buff only 3 units. You can take Ghaz making you fearless for a turn, which helps a bit but again, is no solution. Grotsnick grants Fearless to his unit and some of the Warlord traits help with leadership rerolls. If you take the Ork Warband formation and get lucky and roll a 1 on the Warlord table you can WAAGH! every turn and make everyone fearless, but that is hardly something to count on.
If we’re missing something, please point it out. But as it stands now, the easy button to defeating Orks is to just force them to take Morale checks. They die in droves just as before but no they don’t get Fearless over 10 Orks and help their opponent out by kicking their own asses. It feels like a HUGE detriment. It makes Synapse look like a walk in the park.
- Also, sniping the character out of an Ork unit means they are dramatically more likely to run away. Barrage Sniping, Tank Sniping, etc. will just devastate Ork units.
- Please share any ideas for getting fearless or rerolls on Morale/Pinning checks, please! We’re hunting for them but coming up empty.
If the Boyz lost the old Mob Rule (and why in the blazes take it away? I don’t get it) why did they stay the same points or go UP with Shoota Boyz? Yes they gained Stikk Bombz (Assault Grenades), but who cares? They have very little to no practical impact on the game with a unit that is I2. I shudder to think about what an Astra Militarum army will do to Orks. Hiding in vehicles doesn’t seem to help as they explode and cause 1-2 checks, too.
And you HAVE to take Boyz or Grots as troops, there is no getting around it unless you go Unbound. You can’t take Nobz, MANZ or Bikerz as Troops anymore. They still have the rule but are more durable can can avoid some of the impact.
What do you guys think? Spot a loophole or work around that we’re missing? I am struggling to find the silver lining.
Barrage weapons don’t cause pinning anymore.
Good catch, thanks. I hadn’t noticed that or sniper. Good to know, I’ll change the article to avoid confusing anyone.
Lucky for me, Monofilament still includes *Pinning*, barrage or not.
Yes, thank the good Lord that nothing Eldar have should ever not be awesome.
Just to clarify, the Monofilament characteristic does *not* grant the Pinning rule. A Doomweaver (the Night Spinner’s turret-mounted weapon) firing in dispersed mode has the Pinning rule, but it is not native to the Monofilament characteristic.
Most weapons (Sniper, Barrage, Strafing Run) you’ve mentioned lost pinning in 7ed. So pinning will not be a major issue. However exploding trucks will be an issue.
Yeah, Trukks exploding at strength 4, and the Ramshackle Nerf is devastating for Trukk Boyz with Mob rule, my goodness.
Snipers have lost Pinning too.
Good catch, thanks for pointing that out!
Ouch 🙁
Now you know why I refuse to play Hormagaunts, rules were you self mutilate yourself are stupid and unfun. Also The Horror became instantly nasty vs Orks. Pinned on an Ld check 5-7, chances are good you either get pinned or you punch yourself in the nuts.
Or punch yourself in the nuts and then run away! Weee!
Cant believe they ment it to cascade that way, with casualties from resolving one check forcing another check until you’ve punched yourself silly 🙁 just seems really odd and is incredibly bad if that’s the way it does pan out (not saying you’ve read it wrong, just find it really hard to understand why they would write it that way)
I hope I’m wrong, I keep reading it trying to find a rule I missed.
Mob rule does indeed seem really bad. Besides looking at it in disbelief im also torn on how to try and handle it,
more upgrades to try and reduce casualties and tests – such as painboyz for fnp, warboss for ld9 or eavy armour for 4+ save or the KFF
Or
Keep units cheap accept the casualties and flood the board
neither solution is particulary good. Reece has already mentioned the points bloat for upgrades is too high and still dubious effectiveness. Flooding the board you get too clumped up even more succeptable to blasts or templates, block your own movement, not to mention its not cheap to buy all those trukkz.
It seems to me like the structure of the book forces you to multiple CADs – heavy support is insanely overloaded, and it seems like you will need many hqs also for higher ld fnp kff etc.
This codex looks like its great if you like a really big challenge… My other army was dark angels now random green marines codex chapter of course…
Yeah, I am struggling to see how to get around this. Perhaps there is some hope in the Formations as with Nids.
Guys let me start out by saying, I enjoy your stuff most of the time.
But.. You have to stop with all the negative articles as soon as something new drops, I understand it’s way easier to find and discuss the negative points of a new release, but as people who are experienced with the game and rules I would rather come here and find something out that is not so obvious and what everyone else is yelling.
Please try be the first internet celeb blog/website that publishes positive/constructive articles, it would be refreshing to the community that is continually bombarded with negativity and woe.
Dont mean to be doom and gloom about the whole dex, there is definitely good stuff in there for sure. The new Mek Gunz, tank busters, cheaper bikes, some cool wargear etc.
Its Just that mob rule seems a very large obstacle to work around.
Turn 2 assaults are certainly a high possibility with this new dex. Perhaps you just have to suck it up and be prepared to suffer a heap of casualties in the first 1 or 2 shooting phases.
Harvey, Reecius’s article was hardly “negative”. Just pointing some thing new out and asking the community how to get around the problem.
GW seems to go from extreme to extreme, making extremely powerful codex’s like Eldar & Tau(nearly to the point where if you play these Army’s your likely to get stoned by your own LFGS) and extremely weak in comparison CSM’s and ???(fill blank yourself as I don’t want to cause any upset)
GW states that it is not a rules company but a model company which is a complete and utter lie, as they wrote great rules for the knight’s, wraith knight’s and riptide’s and now the new big guns of the Orks. But all these things have one thing in common they sold a bunch of them on the basis of great rules.
GW needs to get a third party to re-write there rules and then they can concentrate on making all the models just as they advertise.
All these wilting flowers who can’t handle any negative information need to take a deep breath and go for a walk and pick some flowers or something.
FLG doesn’t make these bad rules up, they’re just pointing them out when they realize these books are coming out BROKEN from GW. Get mad at the source not the messenger.
If you want to have a frank discussion about rules, good or bad, hiding your head in the sand can’t be the first step. The first step in the grieving process is denial, you can get over it really fast too if you try.
Hey Harvey, thanks for sharing your opinion. I understand that it can be frustrating to read some criticism of something you like, but, this is us trying to find a way around one of the harsher rules in the game. I am just being honest in my impression, not trying to oversell it or anything. It is a really brutal rule that punishes Orks badly.
No seriously he’s right, Frontlinegaming’s latest articles have just been negative and rants ever since 7th dropped.
It’s getting pretty tiresome now and really has made the quality of your content drop.
I would hate this place to go the way of YTTH, but it really looks like that’s where it’s heading.
Actually, if you check the most recent articles, they are all positive. It is unfortunate that you feel that we are being overly negative, that isn’t the intent. I was describing my reaction to the Mob Rul change which hurts Orks a lot, and army that was weak as it was. If you see that as being overly negative that is your prerogative, but was not the intent.
Ok, comparing you to YTTH was a bit harsh. But it’s only because I enjoy the articles on this site that I pointed it out.
Yes the mob rule has changed, and as a result Orks play differently. But in the few games I have had with the new codex I don’t find to be a bad rule.
Take trukk boyz, they were not great in 6th because their squad size is just too small, they would lose fearless early on and often get severely punished by overwatch. This has been exacerbated with the new codex, mainly because of the changes to the ramshackle rule your going to lose on average 5 boyz when the truck explodes, add 1-2 casualties from overwatch and your not goin to get much from the remaining 3-4 boyz. So even before you add the new mob rule, trukk boyz are not looking too healthy. They would have tested on leadership 7, most likely have ended up being pinned, and now that exploding vehicles don’t leave craters they would be in a pretty bad state. Yes the mob rule makes this worse, but it was pretty bad to begin with.
However trukk boyz got a nice buff this edition, we can take as many squads with ‘eavy armour as we want. This in my opinion is mandatory for theses small squads, it protects against, vehicle explosions, small arms fire (when the explosion leaves them in the open), mob rule hits, overwatch hits, and increases survivability in assault significantly.
Now onto how the new mob rule benefits us.
-It gives units above 10 models a chance of avoiding being pinned, fleeing from casualties, and prevents them from breaking if they lose combat.
-It gives units with less than 10 models a chance of avoiding being pinned, fleeing from casualties, and prevents them from breaking if they lose combat.
The real boon here is small units losing assault by 1-2 wounds.
Personally I would take it over the old mob rule any day as only large units benefited from the old rule (and often these units didn’t stay large for long), and it made assault with small elite units risky.
With the old codex, if a unit of orks that was less than 10 models (nobs, mega nobs, nob bikers, trukk boyz, etc) lost combat by 2 they would have a 70% chance of breaking assuming they had a boss pole (83% chance without). With the new rules they only have a 21% chance (assuming they have a boss pole), even if they lose combat by 6 (and test on LD1) they still only have a 39% chance of breaking.
This even benefits larger squads. Before when your mob took heavy casualties and dropped bellow 11 you would often lose the whole unit including attached characters as they went from being fearless to testing on leadership 2-3. Now you still have a good chance of holding out.
Anyway sorry for the long post, in short, yes the mob rule has changed, is it different? Yes. Is it worse then before? Depends how you look at it.
To be fair, they’ve only been negative about GW. I’ve been hearing great stuff about independent tournaments and dropzone commander and basically anything that doesn’t come from GW command. Maybe there’s a link here?
I like it when they tell it how it is, and FLG have hardly been biased about it. From what I’ve seen they’ve been presenting a far more balanced and nuanced view than anyone else on the internet and really need to be commended for it.
The fact is GW have messed up a lot recently, maybe you should blame them rather than bringing YTTH here.
Thanks, Nikolai. And yeah, please no one compare us to YTTH, lol, that cuts deep!
Believe it or not, people are allowed to dislike it when GW does stupid things. And you must not be paying attention if you think everything here is negative.
So Harvey, when Astra Militarum was released, where was the negativity and complaining? Reece was quick to say that the book was very powerful, had good internal balance, and gave IG players a lot of great build options. But when Nids and Orks were released, he immediately pointed out the flaws of two very flawed books. I would way rather someone call it like they see then sugar coat everything like a lickspittle GW fanboy.
If I may give my opinion. I think what Harvey is referring to is that as soon as X book drops the first article is on “what sux”. Its not that an opinion is being given, its that the first focus is on the how X is ruining the book. This review reminds me of the Nid review, which if I am not mistaken was also the first article on Nids, And despite all the doom an gloom about “Nids are Dead”, I personally have seen more Nid armies and more successful Nid players lately (not just Skyblight Nids). IMHO I had my Orks up for sale before the new book dropped and now I found myself buying new Ork models and thrashing though loads of lists. I believe that this book is a different take on a 40k Mainstay and personally I find the changes to be refreshing and challenging and I am finding some really interesting combos in this book. One thing I would like to see discussed is the changes to the Codex and how it works with the 7th Ed Army creation. I think this and the Ghazgull book are really going to open our eyes to how GW wants us to make our lists. Anyhow sorry for the long post, I do want to say that I do enjoy your articles. You all do well with your varied opinions and you don’t just copy each others view point and flavor. I would just try to refrain from your first articles being “X Codex is now unplayable” as I feel it doesn’t due justice to your ability to write a good article.
Hey Kangor, thanks for the thoughtful comment.
I understand what both you and Harvey are saying, totally. We can react strongly in the negative when a new book drops if we honestly think it is bad. However, it is not always negative. Go back and read our articles on Astra Militarum, or Marines, or Eldar, or Tau, etc. They are all really positive. People just seem to remember the negative articles more for some reason.
And yes, Nids can win games, but that is not the point, really. We said form day 1 with Nids that good lists would emerge and I have been really enjoying my Living Artillery bugs. However, the book really is bad. It may win games with some lists, but in general, it was a big disappointment. I don’t regret speaking my mind on that at all and still wish my Genestealers were playable, lol!
With Orks, I actually really like the release, but I really dislike Mob Rule (as is clear! haha). I think people sometimes think me pointing out a bad thing is me saying it’s all bad. That is not the case. Perhaps I can do a better job of being clear about that though, as I am sure I bear some of the responsibility in clearly communicating my thoughts.
I am glad you like the articles though, thanks!
Reece, this is why I like your blog so much : the level of maturity is so high! keep up the good work!
Have you checked out the ghazkull-army and its formations? They have 20pts relic that gives Fearless and rerolls and theres also few formations that might help. Especially the Battlewagon-formation looks awesome. You have to take 5 and give them rams/rollas. But they gain two extra rules – “Cant assault first turn” and…. *drumroll*
Scouts.
5 scouting Battlewagons. Thats guaranteed turn 2 charge.
I haven’t seen them yet, no, but that sounds pretty solid!
I havent seen the Ghaz supplement yet but Ive seen mention of a formation of 3 units of meganobz that gains +1ws and fearless…. That could be fun… But is this Ork codex already needing supplementary things to make it work like Nids does?
That could work, Ghaz+Fearless MANZ is something that could be quite good.
It feels like they are trying to force you into a play style. Take large mobz with nobz or other characters leading them and get them into combat as soon as possible. Theoretically, a 10 man or more mob with a nob in combat will not break. Yes the casualties hurt, but it seems like the only safe way to play boyz is to run large groups head first at the enemy. I am sure something will shake out of the codex, much like the nidz did.
Yeah, I agree, something will come out of this, but as of now, wowzers, it is rough.
Isn’t this how Orks are supposed to be? A bunch of worthless gits, lead by a single semi-smart leader and they exists only to get into melee?
So maybe this is just to get Ork players to play Orks in such a way that reflects how Orks are portrayed in the fluff. So forge that Orky narrative!
That is certainly one way to look at it, although who wants to be the bumbling idiot NPC in a the narrative all the time? Haha, not me! I am fine with some Orky craziness, but not every turn seeing your army get hosed by itself.
I see a lot of MSU in my future. I need to buy more Trukks.
I tried 9 Trukks last night, it is not what it was. I lost 5 on turn 1, and about 30 or so Orks dies in explosions, Mob Rule checks or ran off the table.
Shit. I was hoping I could mitigate some of it with Trukk spam. 🙁
Maybe I’ll try a Morkanaut(KFF)/Battlewagon list. As you know, I ran Mad Doc pretty exclusively when he was shitty, so he’s a complete no-brainer now. Sprinkle as many Meks around as possible for repairs and Morale Boosters…. see what happens.
Yeah, Mad Dok is going to be a HUGE help.
Keep in mind as well that the open topped vehicles are a Hellhound incident waiting to happen.
Template and Torrent weapons vs. Orkz are downright dangerous.
Yup. You can kill the unit inside and the Trukk with a single high strength Template attack+mob Rule. It’s rough.
They are very dangerous, but you’re fearless inside a vehicle.
Yeah, at least you can’t run away while in the Trukk, lol! That would be sad.
This is pretty bad… but now I see who the Hemlock wraith-fighter was designed for. Why is it the “bad guy” armies have all these ridiculous rules where they start hurting themselves. Chaos (mutation tables) Tyranids (instinctive behavior) and now Orks. Seriously I’d just ignore that rule… any Orks player who came up to me and said can I not have to roll on this would get an immediate “yes” from me.
Exactly, I don’t get it. The “good guy” armies have rules that buff them, while the “bad guys” have rules that hurt them but nothing to make up for it.
Casualties won’t cause a cascade. Morale is taken at the end of the phase. You only take a test if you’ve suffered 25% during the phase. Mob rule occurs after the time has passed to cause a test. Pinning is another matter. You can take 2 in that case.
I think it cascades because, you could fail a morale check, injure yourself enough to cause 25% casualties, then injure yourself again.
You are right that a morale test from 25% casualties is taken once per phase, but, there are other ways to cause tests. Tank shock, pinning, etc. Or, cause a test, it is failed and they hurt themselves which triggers a morale test which can also be failed.
You can’t fail a morale test and hurt yourself through Mob Rule and then take another test. It did not happen during the phase, it happened at the end after you already taken a test based on 25% or more casualties. Piling more deaths on top of 25% doesn’t cause another check.
It’s true you can’t fail a 25% check inflict casualties and be forced to take another check.
Take a pinning check: Fail =casualties
Get Tank Shocked: Fail =casualties
End of phase suffered 25% casualties that phase: Fail =casualties.
Some of you fellas aren’t following. You can take multiple morale/pinning checks BEFORE the end of the phase.
Take pinning check/tank shock/etc.=force Mob Rule and possibly do enough wounds to your own unit to push you over 25% casualties in a phase, then take your morale check at the end of the turn for 25% casualties=trigger Mob Rule AGAIN. Possibly take more wounds or run away, etc.
Let me qualify, you can’t take a morale based on casualties, and then take one for killing more boyz with mob rule. And you are also missing something. Fear is not a Morale test. It is a Fear test, or Leadership test. Tank shock, shooting casualties and losing combat are where you generally have to worry.
I never said Fear was a Morale test. It is still a glaring weakness of any combat centric Ork unit though.
I did say that Fear does not cause Mob Rule, it causes Fear checks which are bad enough for an assault unit with Ld7.
And, I didn’t say you take multiple tests for casualties, either, but you can cause one with say, Tank Shock, hit yourself, then cause enough casualties there for a 25% morale check and hit yourself again or run away.
Seemed like some we’re implying it did. My misunderstanding.
It’s all good, communication is hard no matter how much you try to be clear =)
Maybe I’ve missed something about Morale, tests, but how are you taking multiple Morale tests per phase? At the end of each phase (minus assault phase which has its own set of conditions), if a unit suffered 25% or more casualties, they must take a Morale test. I can’t see logically how Orks suddenly are taking more than one morale test after they punch themselves in the face. There is only one ‘end of a phase’. If someone is looking to me about RAW, well, prove to me how many ‘end of a phase’ can there be.
As for pinning, as others mentioned, have been diminished throughout the game, but you can take multiple pinning tests. I have faced very little pinning in 7th and I am unsure if the Ork codex will suddenly change this.
You take a pinning test when a vehicle is wrecked or explodes. AV10 open topped, even with 3 HP is not that to bring down.
As states above, you can take multiple morale tests in a phase.
Surely it can only be one test per phase? i was hoping turn but knowing GW.
Guess we wait for FAQs.
Still got plenty AM to paint up and may just be tempted by that Dark Eldar or Necron armies i’ve always wanted.
I certainly can imagine GW got some wording wrong. I can’t imagine this was intended to just wreck d6 boys per phase per check. There has to be an upper limit somewhere either phase or player turn or something.
Guess it’s another book that needs day 1 FAQ.
It is per morale check, not per phase, unfortunately.
Mob rule forces orks into combat, and they can get there fast and reliably. The mob rule is most dangerous to units that try to stay outta the fight. This rule is far better than losing combat, and getting swept. Fearless big units of orks was gonna need to change if the effectiveness of the damage output increased. Pros and cons…
Also while there will be outliers, rule as reported here doesn’t scare me. D6 hits at strength 4? Random number then half wound, meh but I then pass the test! Worse than fearless but we never fall back from combat, get in there and scrap knowing that you will either win, or never come back. Perfect orkiness in my mind so excited!
Fearless was to dependable, and with the white dwarf stuff showing units of full boss poles knew those weren’t gonna be super helpful.
Fearless was too dependable? Surely you are joking, right? The Orks were the least played army in the game with Fearless and, they did very poorly in tournaments. It was hardly an advantage, it simply made Orks able to stay in the fight.
Yes, you do fall back from Combat as soon as you drop below 10 it is a near certainty if you lose the fight and run away, likely getting swept. Plus, if your Character gets killed out of the unit (barrage sniping, for example) the unit becomes incredibly easily swept.
I am glad you are excited for it, truly, but after having played it and picking up my own Orks by the handful, it sucked all the enthusiasm away from it for me.
You must have been rolling pretty poorly (or well I guess in this case) to lose as many Boyz are you’re talking about from each test though surely? On average you’ll end up taking 3-4 hits and losing 1-2 boyz per failed test.
In combat it’s better than Mob Rule worked out in 5th edition, but not as good as in 6th edition. Out of combat it’s not ideal, but decent sized units with characters will be passing ~70+% of the time, taking a couple of losses some of the time, and running away like 5% or less of the time.
Oh yeah, I was rolling hot (or cold, depending on how you look at it) and never got below a 4 on the Mob Rule table. At first, I thought exactly what you said, but then when playing and watching units get out of a Trukk that exploded losing 4-6 Orks, failing the pen check, killing another 4, then failing my morale check and running off the table was BRUTAL. While that isn’t the norm, it is not going to be uncommon, either. That is why Orks will probably not be seen much in tournaments as they will be too unreliable. One bad dice game out of 6-8 in a tournament and you’re toast.
And yes, Characters help, but there are so many to go around and they add up in points fast. It really dilutes the number of Boyz you can put on the table.
From the sounds of it, I think Trukk boyz are pretty much screwed. As you’ve found, they’ll be losing nearly half the squad as well as testing probably twice on the turn their Trukk blows up (so often turn 1), which will see them either lose another 2-4 models or run away, although I suppose at least the Trukks are more likely to wreck than explode most of the time now.
I just can’t see it making too much difference for big mobs of Boyz tbh. Obviously I’ll have to wait and see how it goes when I get the chance to play against some Orkz, but it just doesn’t seem too likely to screw them over that much.
In terms of characters, even Nobz will help a fair bit if I’m correct in thinking they’re LD8. That already takes you from ~58% to ~73% chance of passing and not even worrying about the table and protects you from the 2-3 result.
On bad dice screwing you over in a tournament… what’s new? Orkz have always been a bit like that lol.
Yeah, Trukks are a flipping deathtrap, now, honestly. It was brutal. MANz will be OK, though.
Bigger Mobz of Boyz may take less damage from it, but it is a nerf, pure and simple. You go from being Fealress or higher Ld to beating yourself up and having always Ld7 (and Nobz are 7, not 8).
I did really well with Orks in tournaments last edition, I felt they were very reliable, actually. That is one of the things that is rough for me right now in comparison, lol!
GW must think they have sold too many orky trucks and don’t want to sell any more. :/
What is more laughable they made boyz ‘eavy armour’ 4pts ea. Who is going to bother modelling 10pt boy models (11pts with shootas), 100 to 300+ pts on a LD7 mob.
I always picked up orks by the handfuls :). Nothing new to report on that. Not saying you are wrong or anything but I find it funny that for a long time people have been saying that ld checks needed to mean something. Well for orks and tau it does. Stubborn would have been nice coupled with this rule… Always pass about 60% of the time failing that a few of the boyz ran off (casualties) while the rest of the squad was caught up in their own world and stick in the fight. Unless have and they shall know no fear rallying feels like a waste of time to be honest.
Been playing for eighteen years now, orks have always been for the passionate…
Like I said, glad you enjoy them. I love playing Orks too, but not when I don’t feel like I have control over what’s happening to my army. It’s the same reason Chaos drives me crazy. And I don’t mind my Orks dying, but I do mind when they are killing each other! lol
So Orks versus those spooky Crimson Slaughter fellows might be an amusing battle now.
Good lawd, I didn’t even think about that, hahahaha, fear checks will be BRUTAL against orks….oh my.
Yeah. Orks hitting Cultists on 5s because their scared of them is just wrong.
Daemons also becomes a much harder matchup.
Yeah, same with Nidzilla, etc. And I am going to laugh my ass off when a 30 strong mob of Boyz fails a fear check against a single Cultist! Hahaha
Fear tests aren’t Morale tests.
True, but Orks are only Ld7
I will reserve judgement until I’ve played a few games vs orks, BUT… exploding vehicles was always a pain in the ass for the greenskins and this seems to be making it even worse.
I think GW’s new thing is selling their fans a less than average codex then selling them a supplement book to fix it. Like nids.
I don’t disagree with you. But great plan GW, we tyranid players loved that so much and can’t wait for everyone to experience it as well.
Hey am I the only one that feels we would be better off with the old book, and the data slates that came out with white dwarf before this release? I am really trying to like this book, but the more I explore the more i feel like the old codex is much better.
This books buffs.
Tankbustas
Wierdboy
That’s all i think can be counted as the mek gunz and new toys were released in data slates before the release. Warbikes are cheaper, but they are also arguably worst as the smoke rule has changed.
things that are nerfed or worst whatever you want to call it.
cybork no longer an invulnerable save in fact the only invulnerable saves i saw in the new book are ghaz’s 1 turn waagh save and the kustom force field.
troop flex ability boyz and gretchin that’s it no options a good book is all about options and here we have less.
no wazdakka arguably oneof the coolest characters in last edition
no painboyz for nobz pain boy cost you an hq slot now
Ghaz is a lord of war
and the grand destroyer of them all is mob rule this rule is a joke and until you play with it you can never understand how bad it truly is.
Anyone out there who can help me see where this book has improved things for the Orks.
If you reply please realize that dataslates that released with white dwarf such as mek gunz, the gorkanaught and morkanaught, and looted wagons were technically legal for the old dex, so I do not count them as improvements in the new dex.
I really do not mean to be negative, please show me my error I want to love these new Orks. As it is now I feel the orks would be better served to forget this book exists and be given the right to use the previous edition to play competitively.
I feel you, it’s rough right now. There are some great units in there, but, a lot of total garbage, too. I hope we find a work around.
>And, you can end up taking multiple morale/pinning tests a phase and watch your units destroy themselves.
I’m looking at the rule book and you only make one test per phase. Mob Rule only happens once.
Each time you are tank shocked, you take a test. Each pinning attack from a unit that causes a wound, take a test. Over 25% morale in any phase, take a test.
I probably could have worded it better.
What’s really frustrating is what are being conceived as continual shits on random armies (particularly those other than the imperial armies and Eldar). You have the mob rule with Orks, the terrible codex for the Nids (unless they take a dataslate), the CSM book with over costed, under-powered units subject to the the champion of chaos and boon table, and the ever ignored sisters.
This game is not meant to be competitive. If we want it to be, then someone is going to re-write the rules for each army. It’s just that, terribly simple.
It is starting to feel like if you play an evil army you are taking up the role of NPC in the narrative.
I honestly feel bad for the Ork players. From what I saw prior to this new codex, most of the Ork players dealt with their outdated codex by being positive and hoping for a new and better book. However, you look at the comments all over the forums and people are outraged, even more than what we saw with the Nids. So sad.
I would like to point out that fear causes a leadership test not morale check. So thats not a big deal. To me I see the mob rule like the demonic instability.
Fear won’t cause Mob Rule to trigger, it causes you to go WS1 which is bad enough, lol =)
I’m a fan of FLG and I like many of the articles here. I agree mob rule is poorly written and may make or break orks. That said I cannot get behind changing core mechanics like limiting CADs and then seeing the effects on armies like greenskins who were obviously designed with this in mind. Geedub isnt forcing us towards multiple CADs were forcing ourselves to play against the grain of integral design and it’s not working because it effects weaker armies just as much and probably more. Restrict the culprits rather than a herd approach. No more than 4 anni barges or wave serpents etc. The strong armies don’t care nearly as much about running a single CAD. That’s why they’re strong. Others are following the lead of FLG and NOVA which is good for standardizing but make sure these limitations are actually the right move for every army because your decisions have far reaching effects.
Al that said I still give a shout out to you guys.
You make good points but, as soon as you start taking out the specific nerf hammer, people get pissed. It is a no win situation, we upset someone no matter what we do.
You’re also forgetting that is even worse. The hits are randomly allocated, so we’ll just spend more time resolving this garbage. Even your opponent will hate it.
Yup, and, if you took a special weapon, it might get smoked randomly.
While that is a risk I feel it’s in the abstract. Let the rules play out as written and restrict as a last resort. It’s not like eldar the biggest offender was even phased. Now add GKs and crons right back where they were after a relatively short hiatus. The same armies because they are inherently the strongest stand alone codices. 7th did more to stem the problem by itself honestly. Not by restriction but by unrestricting via CADs + OS and MoW missions. I’m not saying there aren’t flaws but this edition is young.
I hear you and agree to a point. We debated this extensively. If you allow things like Unbound or unlimited CADS, you are asking for abuse. You will see some of the craziest lists you can think of at events and I believe it will ultimately hurt tournaments more than help.
I wanted to make a few points here.
1. Reece is one of the most honest guys I don’t know. How do I know this? He owns a game store Orks are a new release and he is giving you his honest opinion about them that is rare because this opinion could hurt his wallet. You won’t get that on BOLS/Forge the Narrative podcasts. The Truth hurts. Orks are a bad book.
2. How anyone could argue that an army with ld7 that has little to no access to fearless can even work regardless of mob rule is stunning. Do you realize how many models have the fear special rule they hand it out like candy.
3. Don’t you like how GW sells the models first rules last suckers! This really makes me mad!!!
4. Ork players waited 6 years for this?
5. How is a Nob supposed to win in a challenge? He swings last has a 6 up save and at most 6 up Fnp WFT?
6. The Nob with a power claw was the straw that stirred the drink as far as the Orks go. Anyone that has played the army in 5th will tell you that the nob would do most of the killing and was the engine of the army. Challenges take this away and now you are no longer fearless as well and you have a chance to inflict more wounds on yourself….WTF!
7. I can hear it now make shooty orks then…Do you have any Idea how many bullets fly around in this edition of the game?!?! With a 6 up save casualties from the front nob sniping and mob rule… Good night
Thanks, Mark.
I think Orks can get it done, but wow does Mob Rule stink.
And, Nobvs can’t take Eavy Armor now unless the entire unit does, it stinks. They are easier to kill than ever.
Take 10 man units without characters. Problem solved, heh.
Yeah, I was thinking about that. 10 Shoota Boyz with a Trukk with Ram is 105 points, which isn’t too bad for 2 ObSec scoring units that are mobile. Not great, either.
You’re not going to want to be in that vehicle though.
Absolutely brutal what happens when it gets blown up. Between the loss of Ramshackle, increased damage to occupants and the Mob Rule chart you’ll be lucky to have anything left after it explodes.
Maybe buy Trukks for foot slogging mobs and keep the Trukks in reserve to turbo boost onto objectives when they arrive?
Would work well with the integrated Maelstrom portion of your new missions.
Yeah, perhaps that is a solution. The Trukks are death traps to Boyz.
I dunno RAW says 25% casualties “during” a phase and take a(meaning single) morale check at the end of the phase. As far as pinning and tank shock, sure, thats obviously during the phase and multipule checks can apply which sucks but it is what it is. Just curious to see how others interpret end of phase, does end of phase mean the end or does it mean you are still in the middle of the phase? Or does end of phase not really mean the end and its still continuing until all rolls are resolved and its technically still “during”and not the end? And if changing the interpretation to end of phase means taking a single morale check for 25% loss and thats it, how will that effect other rules in the game? I dont know, maybe someone can point that out to me, feedback is appreciated. =)
I must have done a poor job of explaining this as it seems a lot of people are missing it.
You take 1 single Morale check at the end of a phase for 25% casualties.
However, you can take multiple morale checks from other causes in a phase, such as Tank Shock or Pinning. If you fail one of those, you can hit yourself. If you cause enough wounds to trigger the morale check at the end of the phase, you could hit yourself again or run away.
Does that clear it up? You can end up beating yourself up multiple times per phase.
Sure does, thanks! Wording was kinda funky. Im looking forward to my first game with orksez for fun games for the random wacky factor. We’ll see how it pans out in the future, I dont think it’ll be a deal breaker though.
If you are the kind of person that is OK with seeing your units kill themselves then you will not mind it I bet. But for me, for the same reason I can’t play Chaos, I am thinking I may not be able to play Orks, either as it drives me nuts to see my guys kill themselves and run away, etc. It bums me out though as Chaos and Orks are some of my favorites. =(
Yeah, it is silly fun to read about Orks being whacky but annoying as hell in the game. Especially coming from older editions of fantasy as well…nothing better than not being able to use half of your units cause they are squabbling. Killing themselves is just as bad. Mob rule used to be boss, now it is a hindrance 🙁
Yeah, I agree. I think if you want to make it work you have to really rethink how Orks are played.
Ah yes truths, I really don’t mind my models dieing. It is the point of the game destroy your opponent. Acceptable losses will be high with orks. I’m cool with that on paper… Waiting on my codex to rebuild and play my pirate orks…
FNP MANz and the new big guns seem really good, but the only troop options are boys, truks, and grots all of which lack durability now. FNP Manz really don’t care about a few s4 ap- hits from mob rule. Maybe run 2 units of grots for troops then dump everything else into mek guns and FNP Manz in wagons. The loss of boys as an effective troop is a huge loss and unfortunately it means we will see fewer ork players.
I was thinking the same thing. Or, take 20 strong units of Boyz in a Battlewagon, maybe with a Painboy for FnP. That is probably a more durable delivery method. MANz as you noted, can take the damage and shrug it off. Staking points into pure kill power and ignoring troops (much like Nidz are shaping up) may be the choice. Bikers are good too, for the same reasons and they shoot really well, too.
Lol poor Reece has been trying so hard to explain how multiple tests can be taken against different occurrences each phase. As it stands I agree that the mob rule is pure doo doo. It was hard enough with the last codex to make those LD 7 tests and now it’s virtually impossible and the drawback can be devestating. I haven’t flipped through the codex much yet but how about taking advantage of those 9 troops choices in trukks? 810 pts. base for 18 objective secured units is pretty good. That leaves 1,040 points for 3 HQs and other stuff. I was considering a pain boy on a bike in a unit of 15 warbikers. Strength 4 hits won’t reliably hurt T5 bikers and what does get through gets met with a 4+ armor and a 5+ FnP.
I agree, that is why I am so confused. The old rule was not overpowering AT ALL. They made it worse with an army that already struggled. That baffles me?
I tried 9 Trukks first! Great mind think alike =) Out of the 108 Boyz, only 3 were left by turn 5 =(
I was thinking about Bikers, too, funny that you mention that. I think at 18pts a pop, they and MANz may be the hawtness. Too bad you can’t take them as troops.
If you take the 9 troops formation they aren’t OS. You could ally with the Ork codex itself to get up to 8 OS slots though.
Good catch on not getting ObSec on the Ork detachment, I totally missed that. Ouch. That is a bummer.
Same thing killed Endless Swarm for me 🙁
Did Cruddace write this? What a poorly implemented rule. It seems like it could be a good concept and very much in Orky character, but like much of what they put together (Synapse the obvious example folks are citing) it just doesn’t feel like it was playtested enough. ….Or at all.
Like Synapse, we are either going to have to house rule a modification to it, or find a way to work around it. The work around simply limits the options the codex will have available, but could still result in one or two middle of the road playable options.
I could see the following be ok;
1) Lots of characters attached to individual units. This raises the Ld and is in character (its a feature, working as designed). The characters are there to keep the boys in line and prevent “mob rule” from taking over. Its what the game designers inteded….. :/
2) Battlewagon boys. Wagons are more survivable preventing the tests and they deliver them into combat quickly
3) MSU truck boys. Minimal reasonably priced mobs in trucks all coming forward at once is kind of an all or nothing approach. Yeah, a lot of them will get pasted on the way in but if enough can get there they will get stuck in and wreak havoc and you have enough to hopefully make the opponent choke on target priority. Very rock paper scissors though.
4) Minimal hidden troops and go all with survivable stuff that kills the opponents OS units.
Other than that you are balancing trying to hide stuff behind LoS terrain and under KFFs trying to get forward. I think you just have to decide on where you want to invest your points and put the high Ld or find a way to make fearless in that unit. Any boys squad become throw away. Just like with Synapse, you will have some good builds and everything else just won’t work. Its sad because players should be able to use all of their codex and have a reassonable chance of winning.
Yeah, that is how I feel about it, too.
Like Nids, it shoehorns you into choosing certain units that can get around the Mob Rule which hurts your army, it is very frustrating. Nids=TMCs that largely ignore the table. Orks will have to find a similar solution.
Did you consider your conclusion comes after 1 game against a drop pod army? You lost a lot of trucks on turn 1 and had to take checks?! Whoa. You blow the first week of a release way out of hand. The rule is rough but I think a fast list will still do well. You woulda thought those trucks woulda stood up to the melta and flamers better…
As I have said numerous times, Trukk Boyz probably got it the worst, no doubt, but, the rule is still very, very bad and I am at a loss as to why they changed it in the first place as it worked fine before. I was not shocked at all that I lost Trukks, it was the cascading impact of the loss of Ramshackle and the Mob Rule that was so shocking.
The Mob Rule is definitely going to be a challenge to mitigate.
The rule does state, “If EVERY model in a unit has this special rule…” – so if you could join the unit with a character that DOESN’T have this rule it would turn Mob Rule off (they’re too busy keeping an eye on ‘dat guy’ to squabble!). Too bad that Orks don’t have any Battle Brother allies and every Ork IC has the rule, so far.
Still, it gives one hope that maybe in the future there might be an Ork model that doesn’t have Mob Rule and can quell mobs (can you say Freebooter Blood Axe Stormboy Drill Boss? I knew you could!).
In the meantime:
-High(er) LD IC’s joining units to increase chances of passing Morale/Pinning checks.
-Hope,pray and use your Warlord Trait re-roll to try and get the ‘Bellowing Tyrant’ trait – allowing mobs within 12″ of the Warlord to re-roll Moral/Pinning checks.
-Leading your biggest, most important mob with Doc Grotsnik (Fearless)
-Incorporating the Ghazghkull supplement’s Big Boss Pole to make a unit Fearless.
-Taking a Stompa (if your group/TO format allows) to make all units within 12″ Fearless.
Other points/FOC slot sinking ways of managing wounds from Mob Rules include:
-Upgrading crucial Boyz units to ‘Ard Boyz (66% increase to the cost of the unit)
-Joining Painboy to crucial units giving them a 5+ FNP resistance to wounds from Mob Rule
Whoops. The Stompa’s ‘Effigy’ rule only makes units within SIX (6) inches Fearless. Goes to show how often THAT gets used.
Maybe now that LoW are in actually codices people will let you use them?
Or maybe that crap continues to be ignored for good reason!
Yeah, finding ways to mitigate it will be critical if you want to play Orks and not be frustrated to high heaven by them.
For Fearless, I know most events probably don’t allow LOW but you get fearless near a Stompa (near enough to get blown to high hell when it dies).
On the negative side, the Dominate psychic power will brutalise orks… morale check to do anything, move, shoot etc
(though no rulebook to hand so may be wrong about both of the above).
Yeah, my thoughts about the Stompa with Fearless too. Good luck making it ‘splode with 12 HP’s, Grot Riggers with IWND and Mekboyz inside!
Dominate no work that way. It’s a LD test not a Morale Test, so it won’t trigger Mob Rule. Good thing!
Terrify will mess them up though. 🙁
It’s a good thing no one takes the Telepathy discipline. Oh…wait… :'(
Yeah, went straight to the rulebook after writing the above, terrify is nasty.
That Genestealer brood lord power ‘the horror’ is nasty too as highly likely to fail due to the negative modifier.
Pretty sure Dominateforces leadership tests, not morale checks.
Still really strong against orks, but thankfully not -that- brutal.
In the supplemental codex gazzys bullyboyz (3 units of meganobs) have the fearless special rule. The council of waagh allows all units within 12 inches to reroll failed pinning and morale checks. Stompas give fearless to everything within 6 inches. The book has a couple work arounds and there is the intention of taskng hq units and upgrades to all your infantry from my understanding.
Zagstruk is the obvious way to mitigate rolling on the chart. Stick him in stormboyz or even bikers and bask in the 24″ reroll bubble.
Good point, and he’s only 65 pts!
Yeah, that is a really good idea. I was thinking about that, too.
Ok, I’m not going to defend the mob rule per se, but I really think that Orks got a lot of stuff that is really nice.
‘Ere we go is pretty freaking solid. Basically fleet-lite, really helps get into assaults. Combo that with a Waagh and Orks can assault at a blistering pace that is also fairly consistent. Stormboyz especially benefit from this as they move 12″, run 2d6, then assault 2d6 with a single re-roll. That’s about a 26″ assault range on turn two, and considering they should have moved up 19″ the first turn, that should put them in range of most things. With S4 and a power klaw, they are a threat to almost any unit in the game. 3 units of 90 with nob with pk and bp and zagstruck for the leadership re-rolls are going to run you 995 pts.
Also, the benefit of mob rule is for when orks are IN combat.
Consider, a unit of Orks that is 18 strong after taking shots from overwatch assaults a unit of grey hunters. The grey hunters mete out 9 casualties (not too off base with a wolf standard and counter attack) while the Orks do 4 casualties in return. Assume the Nob with BP lived. Now, with the last dex, the Orks get to take a test on a Ld5, then if they fail try again on a Ld4. Odds of passing? About 40%, not bad, and you probably lost a boy in the process of sticking around. But with the new rules, the odds of passing are now about 78% (need to make snake eyes, and then, when failed, 50% chance on the chart, with a reroll) and probably losing 1-2 guys from the boss pole. However, there’s about a 30% chance that the Orks don’t lose ANYONE with this bosspole.
I’m sure you’re smart enough to think of other examples, but I found that when my units got below a certain number, they were basically worthless for sticking in melee. Now? Now they’ll stick a bit better.
Now, against certain armies, mostly mechanized forces, constant tank shocks might do lots of added damage, but, seriously, if they are in tank shock range, now you get to assault them and kill them. Also, as you mentioned, fear is going to suck a LOT, but overall? I think we’re going to find it’s OK.
I should also mention that the problem with the last book was that boyz were great, but the support units outside of lootas and lobbas were basically awful or overpriced. Now there are LOTS of good buys all througout, so the drop in power on boyz is mitigated (IMO) by the increase in ability of the support units.
I REALLY like the new buggy rules!
Mega Armor Nobz are also HUGE winners with the new Mob Rule. Now, instead of skeddadling the second they lose, they have a 75% chance to stick around. That’s very VERY solid.
Ah yes, they can take a Bosspole, nice! I didn’t see that at first. That helps a ton!
Yeah, the new Buggies do look solid, I agree =)
I agree that in combat it can be solid. But on the way in, you are getting owned left, right and center.
I hope we find ways to mitigate it for sure, but Trukks are deathtraps, now, lol!
Ere we go and WAAGH! are awesome now, they relaly get you into combat lickty split.
I’m wondering if that one game has tempered your thoughts on this. Obviously, that’s a LOT of melta that dropped down on ya in the vidya. Against a wave serpent list for instance, they wouldn’t be able to explode so many trukks. Sure, they’d be able to kill a bunch, but not explode so many. I also think that the trukks kinda influenced how you see the amount of deaths that can occur from mob rule. Pinning is much rarer in 7th and morale shouldn’t be happening too often per unit per turn.
I think if you keep at it with that list I think you’ll find it should do well against a lot of armies.
I play a different type of Ork army (big blocks of 30), and while losing fearless sucks for all the reasons we already mentioned, I’m still convinced that for trying to get up and assault things, the rule should work out fine.
You make some good pts fluger and there’s more to offset the nerfs not the least of which is the amount of high strength firepower now available.
From another perspective I do think it’s very early to declare anything broken from the dex. I’ve been facing msu fully mechanized orks in non-trukk open topped rides through 6th and 7th. I.e. orks + dread mob rules (so painboys, s4 explosions, min sized boys who didn’t benefit from old fearless much, HS lootas and so on). This type of army was/is very strong and just got better. I wouldn’t put it at top tier but dexes like eldar are the anomaly. Of course there are games where explosions caused problems everywhere but it’s not the norm anymore except against armies like dpa alpha strike melta which wrecks most mech armies that don’t castle and bubble wrap. I play dark eldar fwiw so I’m no stranger to open topped death traps (also run dual CAD w eldar vs the same orks so no pushover or even friendly lists. At least I don’t call 5 loota units in void shield networks friendly).
The mob rule sucks no denying it. It’s unnecessary and unfun but once the shock wears off green skin players will be ok. It’s think outside the old green box time. I know competitive ork players who while pissed feel confident they will do very well with this book. That gives me hope.
Also, the Finkin’ Kap is a no brainer unless you’re going with Zagstruk. The strategic table is really good outside of the ruins based power, and getting two rolls on it is ace. The idea of my 3 big mobz of boyz getting infiltrate and then causing pinning on 3 enemy units is just awesome. 10 pts!? Yes please.
Yeah, Da Finkin Cap and Lucky Stikk are awesome!
I think Ork lists will be more based around force org shenanigans.
I mean 2 force orgs with 90 lootas just seems brutal to me. It’
s only 1080 pts. Maybe throw a cotaez on the table to help go first.
It’s a hell of an alpha strike.
Maybe send some truck boyz down the gut so they have to deal with them. Warbosses deal with AV 14 with klaws.
Something like that seems much more viable.