Show Notes
6-3-14
Intro
- Follow us on Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube! Join our Forums, too! If you would like to be a guest on the show, email Reece at Contact@FrontlineGaming.org
- We sell tabletop games and supplies at 20% off! Hit us up for your next gaming order at Orders@FrontlineGaming.org or visit our webstore at FrontlineGaming.org.
News
- The Bay Area Open is finally coming together!!!
- Prodos Games releases a new render of the upcoming Predator Youngblood for their AvP game.
- Privateer Press releases an awesome new Imperatus Warjack for the Retribution faction.
- More Toughest Girls in the Galaxy! These look fantastic!
- Kromlech releases some new 28mm Grenade Launchers and Magma Rifle.
- Caestus Knight Lancer is now available from Forge World.
- Guardian Cup was a good time, We enjoyed ourselves a great deal.
- Recap
Rumors: The Rumor Section is gathered from the web and is not in any way information we receive from any manufacturer nor is it necessarily accurate. This section of the podcast is intended for entertainment purposes only.
- Ork rules are looking cool.
- Rumors that the Stompa will be in the book as well as Formations. The Gorkanaught and Morkanaught are already for sale and look super cool.
Rant Session
- More 7th edition updates on what the tournaments will be doing.
Tactics Corner
Rules Lawyer
List Review
Stiff man is the podcast MVP 🙂
Best Podcaster NA
Says the Stiffmeister, himself! lol
Please for the love of Buddah dont limit warp charges across the board.
Is summoning overpowered? Limit an army to 1 summoning spell a turn, and the max WC spent to the ML of the caster.
Is Warp Charge imbalance such a terrible thing? At the beginning of 6th, no one had AA and people had to adapt.
Is Invisibility OP? Probably, so make it so it can only works on the model/unit casting it.
It’s very disheartening to hear all of the anti-psycher talk. 9-(
~New Tzeentch Player
“Limit .. the max WC spent to the ML of the caster.”
No please. Casting Prescience with a 50% success ratio is quite punishing. Psykers cost a lot of points, tossing a bunch of dice for a power to succeed has dire consequences. It’s mostly fine-as-is.
Limit to 1 summon a turn seems to be the most feasible, then you’re not over doing it on things that aren’t broken.
My 2 wound CSM sorcerer has perils’d himself to death twice in 3 games, 4 dice casting invisibility with a spell familiar.
That same invis was denied once on six dice too.
The argument was actually MLx2, not just ML.
Some psykers cost a lot of points, some don’t at all.
However, when you play with a single Psyker, it’s no big deal and probably how the game was meant to be played. Anything we do won’t change that. It’s when you have 10+ psykers that things start to fall apart.
The issue is largely that it dominates the phase when you have too much WC. You can’t be stopped from casting and the other player can’t cast. It is too out of balance. We have to come to a consensus on how to handle it.
Though you’re not casting nearly as many powers as you once were.
Yes, but if you have ne psyker with that one power I would litterally throww 34 dice to stop that power
Exactly.
Instead of limiting warp charge you could always limit just dispel dice. Maybe something like 2x the amount of dice the opponent rolled to cast
Yeah, that is a good idea, Josh.
BAO BAO BAO!!!!!!
Wooot, I hope you dont run out of tickets by next friday 🙂 I sdont care if i have to call in sick, im going
I think you will be good to go, buddy. I hope to have the tickets up for sale no later than Friday.
Ticket price? will we need a badge?
$65, no con badge needed!
Regarding Frankie’s changes, I think that if you do one or the other it’s alright, but if you do both, it makes WC3 spells basically incapable of casting. Also, if you do the deny warp charges instead of the whole power, then having a cap on power dice is just crazy.
Honestly, seeing the number of powers that people are casting with the new rules, color me unimpressed. After playing a game where I had +18 dice and being excited to cast 5 powers, it’s just not really all that scary. I think people are mostly afraid of what they don’t know without actually looking at the statistics. Even those tzeentch armies that can get 30 dice that were casting 12-15 powers a turn with the old rules (or multiple castings of the 3D6 S5 shots), are just casting not nearly as many powers as they used to. 1 level of psyker is 1/2 of a warp charge… I just haven’t been that impressed and overall it seems hugely less effective than before, at the very least, it’s far too early to declare it OP and put in an arbitrary cap (and a cap of 12 would just be pitiful).
Here’s another way to look at the psychic phase:
A lot of dice vs a little. If you only have 1-2 psykers in your army, it’s not exactly psyker heavy, so ideally, your strategy wont be hinging around getting off certain powers. You can try to strong arm them through still by throwing all your dice at one (8 dice would take 24 to stop on average) and hope for a below average roll from the opponent.
A lot vs a lot. Awesome, let the psychic battle commence.
A lot vs none. This will probably happen pretty frequently. Some armies get no psykers, others don’t get ones worth using, and some players will just avoid the unreliability of them. The player with none doesn’t care of the enemy is shutting down his non existant psykers
A little vs a little. Whooooo cares? This is probably where it works best anyhow, you’ll get a spell or two off, they’ll get a spell or two off, and the world goes round.
It doesn’t mean that mass psykers dominates all others, it means that taking 1-2 psykers means you need to be careful that you’re not hinging your strategy around one spell. Since that spell is probably a force multiplier, even more reason why it shouldn’t be a guaranteed thing.
I know I’m starting to sound like a broken record, but I don’t understand the logic behind not allowing armies to ally with themselves for the sake of keeping the game as close to the rulebook as possible. So many things are being restricted out of existence anyways, why not make one little, additional change to throw a bone to armies that don’t have a supplement?
I agree. if you take away multiple detachments then I feel you should allow armies to ally with themselves
Fair point, but for every Ork player that does this for cool reasons, there’s 5 extra Riptides/Wraithknights/Heldrakes/Whatever that drive people crazy.
And, I think Orks will be getting a Formation in their new book so, hang tight and I bet you get some love here in a few weeks like Nids did with Skyblight.
What if the Allied detachment were not allowed to have anything that’s in the Primary detachment except basic troops?
Then you get into issues with what counts as “the same thing.” Some armies get different unit choices with essentially the same stuff but different names, others get a single unit that can be customized to different roles by its loadout. Banning “same” units punishes the latter but not the former, which can be an issue.
I think only allowing self-allying where it is explicitly allowed by a codex or supplement is fine. Yes, it means you can go Tau + Farsight or SM + SM for some shenanigans, but I don’t think that’s nearly as bad as it was just a short time ago, and one of the most potentially abusive (Eldar + Iyanden) isn’t even allowed.
It was BS then and it is BS now. I honestly don’t see any reason for it other than to satisfy the false reality that we’re trying to adhere to the rulebook.
We’re not, though. We’re changing lots of stuff. One might argue that allowing armies to ally with themselves IS more adherent to the rules since without the ban on multiple Battleforged, they CAN technically ally with themselves, just in a different way.
Why should some armies get this option while others do not?
Some animals are more equal than others, I guess.
If you really want to balance things, then I suggest either allow all armies to ally with their supplements and themselves or allow NO ONE to do it and ban Battle Brothers entirely.
Dust off, nuke the place from orbit. Only way to be sure.
Thanks for the props and glad you could make it to the cup! I tried really hard to make it enjoyable for everyone, probably went overboard with it, but it seemed to be a success!
I liked the concept of the brackets, as we did them last year and people really enjoyed them, but had to do groups of 8 for the software. It caused some issues, but we worked through them. I plan on posting more info on the tourny later on the forums.
See you at BAO!
Did I miss how many points the BAO will be?
1750pts Per Usual
If you only payed for one psyker… it’s not a big loss??
what if you bring anti air stuff and don’t fight any air? what if you fight land raider spam or knights and you brought a lot of anti infantry?
there’s always going to be units which don’t function well vs opponents. one librarian is cheap and no big loss.
If you spend all your points to generate warp charges, you aren’t going to be very good in the shooting or assault phase[at least for a while] and you will be very fragile.
dear god imagine 9 wyverns vs a ton of heralds
would you limit imperial guard or tau shooting because it overwhelms an assault army??
only played 5 games so far, 2 vs unbound.. been pretty cool. invisibility is too good though. at least warp charge three if nothing else:)
That is not a great analogue, in my mind. If you have a Land Raider and I took 10 melta guns, I still have to use them against you. If I have 3 Riptides with Skyfire and you have Flyers, I still have to hit you, pen, etc.
If I have 1 level 2 Psyker and you have 40 warp dice, I won’t get any powers off. It has nothing to do with tactics or skill.
Plus, summoning spam takes ages to work out. Our game lasted almost 6 hours.
For me, something must be down to tame it a bit, or those games will be pretty lame.
And yeah, Invis is OP.
well, your ten melta’s are designed to combat it, what if you’r opponent only had cheap troops, are your points wasted?if you spend 65 points on a libby and your opponent spends 1000 would you expect to much if anything, would your strategy rely on the powers being cast by that lone librarian.
if you had tonnes of troops and no vehicles and your opponent spent 100 points on melta guns would those 100 points be wasted ?
the melta guns don’t really do anything and neither does the librarian.
My analogy is that sometimes you spend points on things which turn out to be very inneficiant vs your opponents sometimes… I don’t think it’s new.
so you can’t do anything in the phase , oh well, you didn’t spend much on it.
I think this comment nails it on the head. In the list I am toying with presently, I have a Single FarSeer, four Spiritseers, and a shadowseer for psykers. That is 428 points of brain blasting ability. Reece (I respect the hell out of you, but you are wrong on this one), is talking about that lone libby that cost 65 – 100 points. He sould get barried in a wave of dispel dice; I paid for it. What I dont have is that extra unit of spiders, or a few serpents. I am giving up alot for the 2-3 powers I am going to have to focus on. You on the other hand, have gotten a landraider, or a few tacs with rhinos that are not usless without a pile of dice.
On the summoning thing, I agree. Limit the number of summoned units able to be produced per turn by a given player. Rework invis.
I understand feeling like the psychic phase is going to be dominated by psker heavy lists. That makes sense. and if we limit the number of WC dice, we should also limit the number of shooting dice for tau…they have way to many and Orcs can only roll so many dice in CC. If someone builds their lists around a concept and pays the points, then thats their porogative. The real issue I see is the max number of units/points a person can summon. I for one like a unit per turn.
If you just have the one libby, dont expect to get much use out of him when he has to face down an eldar seer list. Case in point, at the G Cup I had Ben C as my first opponent. He had, as you know, a Skyblight list. I had a token Razorwing fighter. Should I have made a big to do about the fact that my one flyer got WTFPWNED the turn it came on? Of course it did squat, less than squat. When making my list, I was pretty certain that I was going to face a skyblight or two, and was fully prepared to see my flyer go down like the new guy in prison.
That one libby is going to do you good against most lists. His ability to cast 2-3 spells over the coarse of the game is goint to help you out. But when he faces off agains Easy E (Eldrad), he is getting his mind melted; as he should.
I say play a bunch of games vs psyker heavy lists. I would love to do some battle reports with Captain A or whom ever and ill run my shadow council vs them. My bet is fewer powers will go of as I have to throw more dice at them and i am going to take some perils. In all seriousness, I would totally love to do that.
And to put a name with the face, I was the guy that turned around from his game when you where playing Adam’s triptide list and said, “I fucking hate Tau. I am so glad that Buffmander Cheese is over.”
If anything needs a nerf its those damn SMS bullshits. It dosnt matter that I move like a boss, hide and do it all right…it breaks too much of the game.
I think the issue is that you are “paying for” the psychic powers and essentially getting a nigh-unstoppable psychic defense (at least in the extreme cases) for free as a bonus gift. Bringing a shooting unit doesn’t stop the enemy from shooting at you; bringing an assault unit doesn’t stop the enemy from assaulting you; but bringing a strong enough psyker list _does_ stop the enemy from using their own psykers, and that’s a problem.
To whit, your list above has twelve psychic dice generated, which is quite a lot… compared to some lists, anyways. What happens if you come up against Summon Spam that is dropping forty dice per turn? They’re going to crush your psychic phase like child’s play, that’s what. That non-interactivity, that you complain about yourself in reference to the SMS, is the problem here-it doesn’t really matter what choices you make or what you do, the player with the overwhelming psychic advantage can just casually sweep away whatever it is you bother to do and/or force you to suffer Perils on any power you want to have a chance of succeeding with.
what happens? the summon spam list is terrible in anything other that the psychic phase, you blow them away in the shooting / assault phase, the more you kill [which will be easy as they all have to be separate units to cast summons separately[ok small units I guess, but if you have three heralds together and you mess up one summons those other guys can’t]
40 dice is…. nothing but heralds? pretty much any half decent army will walk all over it. and cripes if you have a fair amount of barrage, or drop pods it won’t even be a fight.
those psychic points are very easy to destroy and get rid of, and if you do “only” have twelve dice, that’s quite probably one summons denied. the guy with 12 dice will have way harder to destroy psychic power per turn, and a much better army in total
With fourty dicem, you are looking at about 7 sixes. You have to be smart and layer your powers correctly, Cast fortune with 6 and see how many he tosses, and as pascal says, I am going to melt vast numbers of heralds in the first few turns. If they are so lopsidded as to put all their eggs inone basket, so be it. Ill just knock it over and spill those shits out.
Unfortunately you guys are in a likely “no win” situation as TO’s. If you go overboard with your limitations and adjustments your event will be stale, boring, and won’t resemble 7th edition at all. But if you don’t do enough, your event will invite WAAC craziness and potential slow play scenarios. I don’t envy you in the slightest. Is BAO the first big event post launch?
Yeah, you said it. This is a shitty situation to be in. We don’t want to change anything, really, but we do need to do something.
And yeah, the BAO will be the first big one.
There’s not really anything wrong with how offensive psychic powers work. No matter how you look at it, you are less likely to get any given power off than you were in 6th, and you can’t cast nearly as many powers.
There are really two issues:
1) Broken powers like Invisibility
You can still cast a limited number of powers reliably, which is exactly how it should work, there are just some broken powers. Anything you do to stop this will simply make psychic powers useless because you’ll be preventing all powers from being useful, not just the broken ones. You might as well just remove the psychic phase at that point.
Ban the broken powers. Make them +1WC. Punch cheesy players in the face. Whatever. Point is, the solution isn’t to be found in making all psychic powers impossible to cast.
2) The Deny system
Psychically weak armies can’t effectively Deny, and psychically powerful armies just shut down their opponents. The simplest solution, I think, is to revamp it to a single dice per power, just like Deny last edition. Allow it to be used against Blessings.
Maybe make it so you have to be in 24″ to Deny a Blessing. Maybe not. Maybe bonuses always apply, maybe only when the unit with the bonuses gets targeted. Whatever. Those are details. Just on a 6+, you block the power. Otherwise, it goes off if your opponent succeeds. Simple.
If you only have one psyker, you’ll get shut down, but why is that a bad thing? If you’re spending 50 points on a primaris psyker to try and get off Prescience, it’s a very cheap force multiplier. In the new system it’ll still be worthwhile because against low psyker armies, which are far more prevalent, you’ll still probably get the spell off, but now instead of being an auto-include, you’ll have to weight it against the chances of facing an army that has mass psykers. Heaven forbid meta!
Hey guys,
Just thought I would hop in here and clarify that Prodos games miniatures are 32mm not 28mm; also they are much more true to human proportions so not heroic scaled like GW’s offerings. This is true for both Warzone Resurrection and AvP when it drops to retail.
Here are the Predator youngblood pics!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v673/EasyEight/Prodos%20Games/PredYB1_zps5a45e604.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v673/EasyEight/Prodos%20Games/PredYB3_zps14a5704a.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v673/EasyEight/Prodos%20Games/PredYB2_zpsa84ae298.jpg