Show Notes
3-11-14
News
- Check out this review by Family of Gamers 777
- Legion of the Damned mini-codex is out and wow, it loses the game turn 1! Sweet! GW says they don’t plan to change it and that this army shouldn’t be played on its own, or was not intended to be played that way.
- New picture of some painted Toughest Girls in the Galaxy! These are looking awesome and remember, you can get your KickStarter order picked up at FLG, just let them know you want it shipped here.
- HiTech releases the arch father! Very cool looking.
- Bushido releases a very cool new model.
- Brother Vinni releases a funny looking alien dude!
- Pre-orders going forward.
Rumors: The Rumor Section is gathered from the web and is not in any way information we receive from  any manufacturer nor is it necessarily accurate. This section of the podcast is intended for entertainment purposes only.
- Chaos getting Divination? Awesome! lots of ways to run with that.
Tactics Corner
- Knight Titan discussion including FAQ council rulings.
- Tyranid Formation discussion, particularly Skyblight.
Rules Lawyer
- Can you use GoI to jump out of combat?
- The power doesn’t stop this from happening and the FAQ says nothing about it.
List Review
Reece / Frankie,
Got a list for review for you guys. My goal is to build this list to play in the 40k American Team Championship on July 12-13 here in beautiful Chattanooga, TN.
Also, this list will be the basis for most tournaments and casual games I play between now and then.
The List-
Chapter Tactics: Salamanders.
Vulkan He’stan 190
• Command Squad: Apothecary; 4× storm shield; 4× flamer. 175
• Drop Pod 35
5 Sternguard Veterans: Veteran Sergeant (combi-melta); 4× combi-melta. 170
• Drop Pod 35
8 Tactical Marines: Veteran Sergeant (combi-melta); meltagun. 142
• Drop Pod 35
8 Tactical Marines: Veteran Sergeant (combi-melta); meltagun. 142
• Drop Pod 35
8 Tactical Marines: Veteran Sergeant (combi-melta); meltagun. 142
• Drop Pod 35
8 Tactical Marines: Space Marine Sergeant (combi-melta); flamer. 127
• Drop Pod 35
8 Tactical Marines: Space Marine Sergeant (combi-melta); flamer. 127
• Drop Pod 35
5 Assault Marines: 2× flamer. 95
• Drop Pod 0
5 Assault Marines: 2× flamer. 95
• Drop Pod 0
Stormraven Gunship 200
1,850 points
Pod Count – 9
The thought was to get as much traction out of the salamander rules and Vulkan’s rules as I could. The list allows for full null deployment, with me probably dropping Vulkan/Command, Sternguard, and the 3 double melta tacs turn one, using the flamer tacs and assault squads to clear and hold objectives later in the game.
Let me know what you guys think!
LVO 2015! Legion of the Damned! I’m gonna make it work!! Fortune favors the bold!
Lol!
Also when do we get the all LotD batrep- you just NEED to unlock their greatness! Unleash the beast sirs! Heh
I’m a bit concerned about FAQ’s
We haven’t had an FAQ since the Marine book dropped.
We haven’t had a meaningful, argument settling FAQ since last March/April (a year!)
Supposedly that is what the 7th ed 40K book will be.
The alien model from Brother Vinni looks exactly like the Sectoid from the X-Com reboot, especially the wrist-mounted plasma blaster.
If a guy DOES spill on megamat, rolling it up makes a perfect weapon
The difficult terrain movement ruling is really interesting, because like you said, it is a flat out rule change. I’ve played difficult terrain RAW for Super Heavy Walkers and Gargantuan Creatures and it hasn’t caused problems, often times getting the cover save is worthwhile.
The implication of assaulting super heavy walkers that you cannot hurt is actually a really big problem this edition of Apoc (and Escalation). Super heavy walkers almost defenseless in melee if you allow it, while in the previous edition of Apoc they used to be able to walk out of combat. This is doubly so for Lord of Skulls, which doesn’t get to stomp, so if it does get in melee with a horde of infantry, it is basically out of the game, since it only has a few attacks at a low WS and wont get more attacks through losing HP. I’m not sure what the solution is, but in the broader scope of super heavy walkers, allowing 180 points of gargoyles to charge in and basically take a 900+ point unit out of the game is pretty awful.
I think it would be terrible if you disallowed the Skyblight swarm… It does kind of suck that the list basically writes itself, but seriously, what’s the problem with letting another army into the top tier? There are strategies for handling it, the unit recycling is entirely luck based, and gargoyles are not hard to kill at all, wiping 10 off the board on the last turn really isn’t that hard. This is far less game breaking than things we already have in the game.
Another thing is that not being able to charge a dreadnought without krak grenades at the very least would actually make them slightly less terribad… I actually don’t see how that FAQ would override charging against a walker, but not override charging against a non-walker vehicle that you cannot hurt, as vehicles are still “units.” The rules on the walker that discusses how they assault goes on to clarify exactly what they mean, “they make charge moves and can be locked in combat”, it’s even in bold.
I know that Knights specifically could cause issue, as you mentioned, if you have an army of them, but cannot tie them in combat, but thinking of the rule in the broader scope of all walkers and super heavy walkers, I’m not sure sure that is how the rule was intended to be played.
I agree with both of your posts. We’ve always played that you can’t assault a vehicle you can’t hurt including Walkers with the same interpretation as you.
It seems odd to bemoan the inequity between walkers and MC and then rule to take away one of the few advantages they have over MCs.
I appreciate that the potential to face an army made up of nothing but superheavy walkers is largely behind the ruling.
I would love to see some reports using Knight armies against armies using both interpretations of the tarpit/no tarpit issue.
As someone who owns a Lord of Skulls, I whole-heartedly agree here!
That said, the Lord of Skulls is probably the only superheavy that falls foul of this ruling. Stomp should solve most tar pitting issues that a 12″ move and intelligent positioning doesn’t. If that’s not enough, bubble-wrap/baby-sit with a CC unit that can clean up any cheap tar-pit attempts.
Even then it’s still worth tying up a superheavy for a turn or two, even if it’s a suicide mission – which adds tactical interest.
Not being able to assault Walkers you can’t hurt may be good situationally but is bad in general terms. So the Khorne Mower is impacted badly by it, but that is a single model that you rarely see. Knights, we will be seeing all the damn time. In situations like these you have to go with the lesser of two evils, IMO.
As for the movement thing, we felt that it was an oversight. When we come on an oversight we correct it to what we feel was the obvious intent. Not everyone will agree of course, they never do, but that is how we handle those types of issues such as Iyanden Eldar being able to ally with Eldar. It breaks the pattern that every other supplement has set. It feels like an obvious oversight.
Sure the Lord of Skulls is a single example, but in general, Super Heavy Walkers not being able to walk out of combat anymore kind of lends to the idea that they intended them not to get stuck in by non-threatening things to begin with… Think about the extreme examples… is a Reaver Titan really concerned by a blob of grots? It’s going to miss out shooting it’s massive apocalyptic weaponry because a couple of cultists are ineffectively punching it in the feet?
Now from a balance perspective, I totally agree that if knights can’t be assaulted by anything under Str 7, then that does lead to some problems, but at the same time, I don’t think that is RAI, nor is it RAW… If you are to allow Lords of War eventually, this might want to be a specific house rule to knights, and not all LoW.
They can’t walk out of one, but they should be able to stomp out of one.
Well they can’t do either, lol. An Imperator Titan would be stuck in melee with grots, not firing it’s dozens of weapon systems, if we argue that you can charge walkers that you cannot hurt.
Fortunately, we don’t have Imperator Titans, but we do have Reavers and Phantoms, which are similarly screwed by that ruling.
I agree that Stomp seems to me to clearly be the method by which they break free from combat.
Nothing about Stomp lets them break free from combat, and you’re ignoring the point. There’s no way that GW intended to allow grots to tie up a titan in combat so that it cannot fire. This has even been reiterated when people call them for rules questions.
Like I said before, I understand why you’re ruling it from a perspective of balancing knights in tournaments, but there’s nothing RAW or RAI about it.
The FAQ actually specifies that it’s in regards to the rules on page 20. The vehicle rules for assault go on to mention that they are an exception to normal assault rules, and even under the walker section it tells explicitly what they’re referring to when they say that they’re assaulted like normal units, and nothing about that section says to ignore the restriction on assaulting vehicles which you cannot hurt.
That doesn’t make sense. If they removed the ability to walk out of combat, that would imply that they did intend to allow them to get stuck in, not the opposite.
Only if you are also choosing to ignore the rule where you cannot assault a vehicle you cannot hurt.
It makes far more sense that titans, which can punch each other apart can be stuck in with eachother, but wouldn’t be stuck by grots. If anything, if you play RAW, this is an elegant solution to the previous edition where you could never get stuck in.
Exactly. And stomp is there tool to get themselves out of combat.
RAW totally supports it, IMO. You assault walkers like infantry, you can assault infantry you cannot hurt. That is very straightforward in my eyes.
In regards to Gate of Infinity it is considered a Blessing. Under Blessings it specificallys states that it can affect a unit in close combat. So I don’t see how GoI would not be able to jump a unit out of close combat.
Yeah, I think you may be right.
I think the days of GW releasing FAQ’s are long gone.
Please please don’t take away the sky blight or the other formations. It’s the best thing to happen to Tyranids in over 10 years and it’s easier yo deal with then the seerstar or most of the other death stars out there.
I think that the only modification needed is Frontline’s “army may contain two forces” idea.
What are we up to RAW? 6 potential sources for an army? I’ve lost track.
We’re still testing stuff out, we aren’t making any hasty decisions on this one. It is so damned powerful, though.
Not as powerful as the seer star are you going to ban that?
Ben, chill, we’re just talking right now! Haha, and those are apples and oranges. A Formation is not the same thing as a combo. What will or will not be allowed in our events is pen for debate as always.
I’m not up set Reece. I just keep hearing how people don’t want to allow them because they’re too powerful and that is just hilarious given all the other incredibly powerful stuff in normal codexes that’s all
Fair play, it sounded like you were mad. But yeah, there is some very powerful stuff out there, but I think some armies will straight up get steamrolled by this.
Kind of like how most armies get steam rolled buy Eldar?
For one, that’s a red herring. It’s not relevant. If you have two “broken” things and remove one, then it’s a failure to remove the second one, not an argument that you should not have removed the first. More importantly, they did in fact introduce a nerf to rerollable 2++ units.
Not that I’m saying skyblight should be banned, just pointing out the logical fallacy.
Not when people are trying to use the argument that they are to powerful to be allowed int the game but at the same time allow other things that are more powerful then them in the game. And even with the 2+ nerf they are more powerful then the Skyblight. alot of armies will be able to fight them. seerstar will kill them. Tau, Necrons, guard, space marines. all have ways to deal with them they might just have to change up what they bring
No, what I mean is that just because X is or isn’t broken and should/shouldn’t be banned, that doesn’t mean that whether or not Y should be banned is based on whether you banned X. It’s fundamentally flawed logic. It’s like if someone tries to punch you in the face twice, just because you let one get through doesn’t mean you should just give up and take the second blow.
It’s definitely a massive power shift from where the rest of the book sits.
I just view it as being less gamebreaking than the current Deathstar 40k meta. Which if included along with Knights could shake up the current listbuilding paradigms.
And while the gargoyles are certainly nuts they can only go 12″+D6 so they’ll find themselves in harms way far more often than the absurd Eldar jetbike/Night Scythe Warriors currently dominating the last turn contest/scoring plays as is.
That is a fair point.
I have to agree with this spot on !!!
Where can I get a copy of your Imperial Knights FAQ?
http://www.adepticon.org/14rules/40KAddendumv2014.pdf
We will have it up on FLG soon, too.
I like the two sources idea. But you have to leave the bug formations so they aren’t the only codex that doesn’t get a second choice
The options we are discussing so far are to let Formations in on a one by one basis, or all of them at this point.
But we stick to our 2 sources rule for building an army.
I have a couple questions about the FAQ rulings:
Wouldn’t the Imperial Knights movement in cover be 3d6 choose the highest then double? Because they have Move Through Cover. Or did you guys change it intentionally that the doubling replaces one of the d6 so it’s just 2d6 doubled?
For the Skyblight Formation, have you been playing that the Gargoyles are completely uncontestable? The RAW on it is pretty clear that it’s only enemy *scoring* units that can’t contest them, so if you have something that is just a denial unit then they should be able to contest.
Also, IIRC it says that they control objectives, but it doesn’t say that they are scoring units, so for the case of the Relic, they shouldn’t be able to pick it up as they aren’t scoring, they just control objectives.
It is 3d6 if you have Move Through Cover, which the Knight does.
As for your other questions, there is some debate going on about those issues.
I’m fairly sure Denial units only stops scoring units from controlling objectives. If you say Gargoyles aren’t scoring (even if they can control objectives), well… I’m a happy Tyranid player.
I say allow all formations but stick to your guns on the two sources per army rule and everything will be just fine. I know you guys will make the right/good decisions.
Thank you for the vote of confidence, Noah!
Yeah. I dont think most Formations will even be taken when they take up your allies, apart from Tyranids
And the Tau formation, lol, the two most powerful of course.
But youll really have to think about it when they take up your ally slot.
Nids don’t, lol.
I was talking about the Tau one. But I don’t think you’ll see it in the top builds at your events when it takes up the ally slot
Even though 10 points per combi-melta is expensive, going by RAW for Vulkans rule they would get to use the master crafting for firing them as bolters with special issue ammo, so it means they have one mc melta shot and mc spec ammo shots. Makes it a bit more cost effective for them
Yeah, fair enough, that is a good point.
Otherwise, I have to agree. I only put combi on my Sternguard in Salamanders lists or Blood Angels lists, because they are still 5 points (one of the few cost-effective left overs in that dex, lol)
just a thought… what units can’t assault a walker[if you read it that way]
eldar can get haywires on characters??
anything imperial can get melta bombs??
tau….can get haywires, but not kroot, vespid?
dark eldar,fine, haywires usually.
necrons,fine, any character with a war scythe
chaos demons: pink horrors can’t, anything slanneshi can with rend, anything nurgle usually has rusting touch, khorne dogs and bloodletters can’t.
until you put heralds with cool weapons in.
nids: can’t with gants and gaunts and gargs
chaos space marines…most things can get melta bombs right? spawn can’t… Ithink[without a character]
I don’t have books here so I’m just spitballing but…. it seems the only army that would have trouble tar pitting a knight is… nids.
Is that a big enough deal? have I missed something?
Yeah, but argument hinges around taking upgrade characters and wargear that are not taken 99% of the time because they are largely inefficient. That is a bit of a strawman.
some might be inefficient…if you aren’t playing with the “can’t assault walkers you can’t hurt” rules. then they just become a tool.
5 points to be able to hurt MC’s and assault walkers for more than half the armies, sounds ok.
I’m mainly being devils advocate:), but it appears that it just makes some of the non choices for units into actual options. the only army with hordes that can’t swamp walkers is nids. But they sure have MC’s to deal with them.
I don’t mind either way it gets played, it just doesn’t seem to be that big a deal. Playtesting maybe needed but… it just seems like choices thing.
Reece, Frankie, thanks for the list review. It’s always nice to get some perspective from outside your gaming group to throw out ideas that you may not think of.
I think you guys are spot on with the combi-plas on the sergeants. that will be a change for sure. it just makes that unit more dual purpose and still deadly to either armor or infantry.
A second stormraven will probably be making its sweet way into my list as well.
I know frankie didnt care too much for the shields in the command squad, but i feel like that at 40pts its not that big of an investment and with 3++ and fnp it makes the smaller unit a little more survivable, especially against the interception iontides. But the point is noted and i will definitely be watching them to see if the investment is valid, or if i am just dying to HYMPs and the 3++ don’t make a hill of beans’ difference. Another reason is i am ordering the FW legion breacher siege squad to represent that unit, as i just love those models and think they would look sweet rocking flamers.
The other thing you guys mentioned was the vet sarge upgrade. Y’all talked about how ATSKNF means LD on tacs doesnt matter, and in combat you guys are right, but my concern (and the reason for taking them in the list) was to help prevent pinning and running off of obj’s at the end of the game due to morale checks. I dont know if 10ppm is worth it for that, but that is what i felt at the time.
Once again thanks for the review, and a quick question; How important is being able to combat squad tac marines in that list?
Combat squadding is incredibly important. Having two seperate scoring units coming out of a pod is amazing.
You play Daemons, you know how annoying it is to try to kill that many squads in one game. Often if they’re all in one group it’s so much easier.
That is kind of where i am at, the ability to break up and provide more targets to the opponent, as well as fire at double the targets, is a big deal. Also, it could actually help with intercept, as only one of the halves could get targeted, as opposed to the whole squad
No worries on the feedback and I agree with Anonymou5, I have been running body heavy Marines and they do extremely well.
YESSSSSSSSSSSS! Shoutout done well AND a frankie closing! SO PROUD
An earlier post stated that gargoyles will be put in harms way as they can only move 12″+D6. Dont they have the ability to deepstrike onto objectives? At least in their first incarnation. That makes them extreamly difficult to shift before they get to any important targets.
Shows awesome by the way. Its getting huge here in the UK with the majority of games I know tuning in for every show!