Hey everyone, Reecius here just throwing out some ideas that have been bouncing around my noggin about potential format ideas going forward into this brave new world of gaming! Just to be clear, this is only a discussion for a hypothetical format, not an actual plan.
The times, they are-a-changin! That is OK, change is often scary at first and good in the end.
So, we find ourselves in a situation where we have lots of cool new games to play, and the mainstay game that we love the most here (40K) has really changed and continues to do so! Rumors of 7th ed? Dogs and Cats living together? Huh?
These silly tabletop games that we play are community driven. What I mean by that is that unlike a video game (and the main reason I prefer table top games) is that in order to play, you need friends to play with. Organized cons and events have sprung up all over the place and with the example set by leaders such as Adepticon, GenCon, etc. we see how big these things can grow and how much fun they can be! Our vision for our events such as the Las Vegas Open, Bay Area Open, etc. is to grow into a network of super fun, community driven events that people look forward to all year! We also want them to be a platform that lots of games can plug into where we do the crappy part of admin, finance, promotions, etc. and passionate gamers can come in and run awesome events for their communities.
To that end, Frankie and I have been discussing the idea of running 2-6, 1 day 40K events with different formats. You could play in your choice of event each day and then your choice day 2 and on (or not play the second day).
Each event would be self-contained, and a tournament unto itself. However, each event would also yield “con points,” perhaps by adding up your battle points for each round of play as a hypothetical idea. Then, you add up the accumulated con points to determine the event “winner.” You could even have traditional multi-day events wherein players that lose in the “competitive” format events do not go on to subsequent days. Each tournament would be a contained event, players would be ranked according to how they did that day, and then would “start over” so to speak each subsequent tournament. That way you could still have a tournament champion, Swiss style. Those players simply keep going on in rounds until they lose or are the last gamer standing! Those that fail to qualify are not obligated to keep playing and can instead jump into a different format event or play another game entirely.
The benefit to this is that you could run say, Escalation included events so people can use their super heavies. You could also run say, a no allies event where folks can only use a single codex. You could also run a narrative event, kill teams, doubles event, etc., etc. that would appeal to a wider range of hobbyists. If each event was weighted equally, then folks could do what they liked and have a variety of events to participate in. It also mitigates the bummer feeling of losing a game day 1, and playing day 2 knowing that you are out of the running.
It also may appeal to more people if they can only come for a single day instead of having to commit to multiple days. If you can only get away for a day, this means you can still come out and play and be in an event that is self-contained. The cool thing is that we really wouldn’t even have to change our format, either. The BAO format actually works quite well as a Battle Points or Swiss format event.
The downside is that this would dilute the prize pool. The upside to that downside though (haha, confused yet?) is that more people would get prizes, they would simply not be as big.
Here’s an example, hypothetical schedule. A player would be able to play in any of the 1 day events, the “main” event is a series of 3 unique events, but getting into events 2 and 3 are open to qualifiers only.
Friday:
- Competitive 40K Tournament 1
- 40K Narrative Campaign
- 40K Kill Teams
- Warmahordes Tournament 1
- Drop Zone Commander
- Infinity
Saturday:
- Competitive 40K tournament 2 for qualifiers only.
- Doubles 40K
- Escalation Tournament
- Warmahordes Tournament 2
- Pathfinder Society
- Warhammer Fantasy Tournament 1
- X-Wing
Sunday:
- Competitive 40K Tournament 3 for qualifiers only.
- Apoc
- No allies 40K tournament
- Warmahordes Tournament 3
- Deep Wars demos
- Warhammer Fantasy Tournament 2
- Whatever game of choice.
What do you guys and gals think about this? Would this sound like fun? More variety? This also means you could play in events for other games, such as Warmahordes, Drop Zone Commander, etc. and not be committed to 40K (or whatever game) the entire time.
Let us know your thoughts, please.
I like it. Similar to having a loser’s bracket, but instead of having a monoformat you can jump between different points values, mission types, etc. You can sign up for the traditional tournament at ~1750-2000pts, but if you lose then you can drop into one of any of several other mini-tournaments, or you can just sign up for one of them in the first place.
Yeah, exactly! And that way you can play the way we have played in the past and go for the gold in a “main event” or you can jump into different events and get more variety.
I think it would be a good idea. I don’t agree though that the prize pool would be diluted, just expanded. I think that simply a different kind of award prize in needed. An example being a prize at an event I was at a long time ago that had a, “The-dice-are-against-me” prize, where you won by rolling the worst over the course of our games. Admittedly, it was a small 16 person tournament. The “winner” got a new box of dice. It was small and kitschy, but it was a prize.
The point I was trying to make on the prizes is that we have a certain budget for how much we can afford to give out in prizes. When you have one event that runs over the course of 3 days, that is one set of prizes. When you have 3, 1 day events each of them has prizes and so you get 3 packages of prizes. it adds up quick and before you know it, your prize budget has run dry. People get upset if they feel the prizes aren’t adequate.
I’ve always felt prize pools should go deeper anyways. No problems here. We shouldn’t be in it for the loot anyways.
Exactly how many of those belts can you make?
Haha, right? The belt was very expensive to make, and the trophy we’re making for the LVO is even more expensive. Those are one off type deals.
Will it be easy to organise so many different interchangeable tournaments and tournament goers. The logistics make my mind boggle and I love organising!
It would definitely be more challenging. But, I think the effort would be worth while as it means players have so much more flexibility in what they can do. Also, using online apps and software like Google Docs would hopefully help a ton to keep everyone organized.
A former game system I played in ran three tournaments over a three day con. First was a 128 or 256 player single elimination. This was the big ticket
Running concurrently with this was what they called the “patrol tournament.” You played as many games as you could stand against randomly assigned opponents. No bracketing, etc. You simply played who was available when you were ready for your next game. On the last day, the top 8 (or 16) patrol records faced off in a single elim format. Top record was decided by half best win/loss record and half most “net wins” (5-2 is better than 2-0). The primary tournament also ran the finals of the single elim at the same time.
Everyone else played in a final day pairing match. Effectively 3 tournaments throughout the weekend for the same game system.
That is exactly what we are talking about here, too. Each event is a single day, so everyone else doesn’t feel like they’re missing out and are freed up to play in other events or to go home.
i like it, the 4 game day 1 and 3 game day 2 is a bit much if you ask me. i’d rather take it easy and do this or that depending on how i feel.
Me too. I honestly don’t like playing 8 or 9 games of 40K in 2 days. 5 feels just about right for my taste, and I can do 6, but more than that and it begins to be a bit of a chore. Plus, I like other styles of play, too. And I think we aren’t alone in that…well, I know we aren’t from all the data I have been gathering! haha
Looks like a pretty solid idea to me. I am very interested in the “no allies 40k” event. I actually think that would produce a interestingly fun meta.
Another thing I like about the no allies 40k thing is it would be nice to actually play a game of 40k where the force org chart mattered again.
Haha, true.
Right?! There are a lot of people like you, too. It would not be popular enough for a main event from the information I have gathered, but I think it would be really fun for a 1 day event.
I’m ok with it but it is wayyyyy too complicated of a format. Better to keep each event unique. Where would it all stop? Where is the mirror match format where everyone uses exactly the same list on exactly the same terrain? Crazy! Stop fretting, define what is allowable to your events and relax! You will pack well run events!
Thanks, and yes, a well run event is what is most important, you are right. I was just brainstorming ideas for future cons we run.
And it would be a bit more complex but I think it could be managed if it was properly organized.
Great idea sounds like fun.
Yeah, I thought it would be great to have more options. We’ll see if it is feasible.
Good thoughts here Reecius ! You hit the nail on the head. Kudos.
Thank you, sir!
Sound a lot like Warmachine. Their bigger tournaments always have multiple formats. Personally I would love a no allies tourney.
Yeah, Warmahordes is a big inspiration for this, too. I like the fact that people can do so many different things! And yeah, a lot of folks have expressed interest in a no allies tournament. I think it would be fun for a side event!
If I ever travel attend a multi-day tournament type event, which is a goal of mine, the set up you describe would be ideal for variety and because I am only a little competitive, not a lot. I think you appeal to a wider audience for sure.
Thanks for the feedback, Ben. That is what I was thinking, too. This type of setup theoretically appeals to a wider audiance. You can do a lot of stuff and really have fun.
what no Infinity? Shame on you sir!
Yeah, interesting that DZC is getting more love than Infinity.
I have to say it has more buzz recently but (at least here in the UK) X-Wing seems to be the biggest up and comer with our next tournament having sold out nearly 40 spots (I’m not running it just helping) in a week.
We also get a lot of Hobbit love, though I guess that may be temporary, with our last event having about 30 players.
We’re also going to be running a small AvP one in August following its Kickstarter release…. Always looking for the next big thing!
Hey Tagentical, been a while!
Yeah, that was just a hypothetical schedule, not anything serious. I was just using it for illustrative purposes as something going forward to think about.
Infinity is awesome, I really enjoy the game. And as a huge AvP nerd, I am excited for that, too! Interesting you get Hobbit love, we can’t sell that stuff to save our lives! haha
Not something I’m into (Hobbit) to be honest and our local club only gets an average of one game of hobbit going on at any one time but we mention an event and it’s like the faithful descending! We had an Xmas social 40k Apoc event and Hobbit day and got ten Hobbit players to eight for Apoc.
The guys who are into it are so passionate they nearly sell it to me when I chat to them.
X-wing has gone crazy though, our venue (a big Scout Hut) has reached capacity for that one and we don’t get those numbers for 40k.
X-Wing is super popular here, too. That is rad that you get such big numbers for it but the funny thing for me was that I just didn’t see how it was a competitively appealing game. However, I only played it 2 times and we were drinking beers and goofing off, so maybe we just didn’t see it.
Haha, sorry! I love infinity, that list was just hypothetical, not a serious schedule.
More prizes to give, more time flexibility, more different ways to play 40K. I’m in.
Smaller prizes?; the best prizes are the bragging rights for the year.
I agree with you, Mikko. For me it is all about bragging rights! Plus, we can make trophies and such, too. We just wouldn’t have the big attention grabbing main prize (although we would still have the Belt of Russ and similar items).
You’re living the dream bro! Remember when riding the tiger don’t think about getting off! Looking forward to the LVO. Stoked you’re doing this and I hope it’s rewarding for you financially. Frankly, I just want to have a beer or six and go “pew pew pew… ahhh you got me!”
Yeah, that is pretty much how we play, too! haha. The LVO will be awesome and as advertised. These ideas are looking forward to the BAO and such.
I guess my only concern is, what happens to the guys who are “in it” for the main tournament on day 2, but then get left out day 3? Are they only able to play day three events? Are all of these happening simultaneously on each day?
I could also see a few people being really bummed going deep in the “main” tourney, say day 3, then losing their second game, thereby stopping them from winning the main, AND not being able to sign up for anything else.
Just my initial reaction. Srry if I misunderstood how this is layer out
You got it, NIK2286, but unfortunately there is nothing we could do to stop that. If you are in an event for the day, that is what you are doing for that day. Unless you are out of one thing and then can go to another and just jump in or it hasn’t started yet, once you are decided you are committed. It would be the same for anyone in a one day event that lost half way through, you know? They wouldn’t be able to switch gears, either.
If you guys did a DZC I would flip my lid and start throwing money at you like a cheap stripper. I love that game(HAvent played it, but im serious about it, and you guys doing events would set me over)
Also, it would be coool if PFS was somehow on friday. It seems like a Friday game TBH
Again, this is just a hypothetical schedule, not a serious plan or anything.
We’re going to open up a DZC box set in the new year and learn to play if you want to come by!
Cool.
I approve of this idea very much. Variety for the masses! Now, too bad I’m not in the US…
You may have to fly over!
Nice idea, I think I’m taking a slightly cowardly approach to our next tournament in late April and making it a doubles event with each player using a 1000 point force org compliant list with no restrictions other than official models must exist to use.
Talking to pro escalation chaps this doesn’t offend their sensibilities and it limits the nutso stuff just enough for the tournament players who will probably view it as a bit of ‘fun’ anyway due to the team nature of it. Hopefully someone will sort it all out before our next one in winter.
Will be using the new Mega Mat for table 1 though with some CJs World terrain so should be epic on the top table!
I love that you will be using a Mega Mat! Awesome!
Yeah, I think there is room for all kinds of events to make it fun for a wider range of people.
How about kill team?
Yeah, we’d love to include Kill Teams!
What I especially like about kill teams is that all those units that are considered useless in regular games are quite good in this format.
I really like this idea. Lots of variety and puts the player in the driver seat. And as a newer tournament attendee, I am at peace with the idea that my odds of taking the top competitive prize are on the same order as my chances to become Space Pope. A choose your own adventure structure that Reecius put forth blows my ceremonial space robes up.
Haha, Space pope approves of this message!
Sounds good to me. Kill team all the way. After I get my ass handed to me in the regular tourney and doubles tourney and no allies tourney.
Yeah, I think the increased variety would be fun! One of the things that can stink about 40K tournaments is that it can suck up so much time. Having more time and options means more games, theoretically.
This is an interesting idea for sure, and I like it. The question I have for you, is do you think the player attendance would actually support this type of format? As cool as these various ‘options’ are, do you feel this would dilute the number of players in each format?
Good question. And, I don’t know the answer, honestly. I think we could still do it the same way we have in the past where the 40K tournament is the “main event” but wherein players that don’t make the qualifier into the next event can jump into another tournament or a different game. I think so long as we communicated the idea correctly and clearly, it shouldn’t hurt attendance.
Wish i was on that coast. 9-(
Us too, sir.
This basically sounds like what GW’s Throne of Skulls event SHOULD be. I could dig it. It’d be a good way to get “fresh blood,” hooked on the tournament bug.
I still prefer the classic Adepticon/BAO/WhateverSingleBigChampionshipEvent type of format, personally, but something like this once a year could be fun. I think a heavier emphasis on the hobby side of things would fit in well at this type of event/gathering.
Yeah, guys like us that really enjoy the competitive aspect of it will want that, and I think that there is room for that. The event proposed above still kind of offers that in that you start out with a lot of players and work down, but this (hopefully) draws in more folks, too. We’ll see though, this is just an idea and something to think about. Thank you for the input.
When is the beer hammer event?
You can find all the times on the schedule, but Beerhammer is Friday night.
This sounds like a take on warmachine tournament setups. Different rules for play each day, but everything starts fresh each day.
Personally I dont think this will work as well for GW stuff. The game is centered around playing army vs army. The other game modes (kill team, etc) end up being really wierd. You could switch up the points each day, 1000, 1500, 1850 days 1,2,3. That might work as some armies change in power from level to level. But that may also end up feeling like playing the same game over and over but with slightly different models. It does allow for multiple winners as the guy who won at 1000 may not get as lucky at 1500.
I would actually like to see the other aspect of warmachine tournaments get introduced somehow into 40k. Two lists. You could have the condition that the primary list be faction fixed but the contents and the allies can change from list to list. This could help the tournament scene emencly as some of the more gimiky armies like screamer star wont work as well if one of your two opponents two lists is directly geared to countering it most of the time. Standard rules such as each list must be played once (or twice for five games or more) should still apply.
People may say that it would require you to show up with a huge amount of models but most still wont pass what an orc mob army would show up with anyways.
Yeah, these are just ideas, too. We have talked about two lists as well, or sidebar lists. We think that would help a lot to balance things.
I really like this idea. I think it caters to the serious tournament gamer and the not so serious, gives lots of options and would be a fantastic format. I’m sure the back end work of it would be quite challenging the first couple of times until the bugs were worked out but that’s not uncommon.
It could be challenging though for the organizers of the different games to plan accordingly, since say I lose my game of 40k on Friday and I want to jump into X-Wing on Saturday, it could be full. It might be challenging to get into the game you want. I suppose you just go with the expectation of having a few options that you want to try for. Just something to consider.
Over all I think it’s a great idea.