What it do, people. Reecius here to talk about why the limit of only two factions per army voted on in the LVO is a good thing.
I would like all of you to close your eyes for a minute, and come with me on a magical journey back to the year 2012.
The place, Adepticon.
The scene: Grey Knights….everywhere! It was the most incredibly over-represented army at the event by a mile and holy crap was it depressing. And, this is no dig at Adepticon, we love those guys and their event, but holy crap was that lame. 27% of the field was Grey Knights, out of 14 possible armies to choose from. Half of the finals, 8 of 16, was Grey Knights.
Why? They were perceived to the best at that point in time. People going to a tournament often want to maximize their chances at victory so they take what they think is best.
Wouldn’t it have been nice if Adepticon would have somehow been able to limit that so that it wasn’t so frustrating? Had they limited the amount of Grey Knight players going in though, people would have screamed bloody murder. In retrospect, it would have been nice to mix things up a bit.
We are in that situation again, now, but even more pervasive due to the new rules. As you can now take Coteaz (or any Inquisitor from that book, or both) in almost any army in the game, you can bet your bottom dollar Coteaz will be EVERYWHERE. Why? Because why wouldn’t you take him? For 100pts he adds so much. The thing is, everyone is thinking the same thing you are! You are not a unique snowflake! Not to slam anyone, but hopefully this article shows people why this group decision for restraint is a solid choice.
Every single list that I have had sent to me so far from someone going to the LVO has had Coteaz in it. EVERY. SINGLE. LIST. When you can take him on top of your primary and ally, why would you not? You can cherry pick one of the best HQs in the game with no downside at all.
Everyone gets upset when they feel like their list writing ability gets handicapped. I get that. I am glad though, that the LVO attendees voted to limit the amount of factions in a list to 2 (and that includes sub-factions such as White Scars and Ultramarines, etc.). Why am I glad about this? Because we won’t see Coteaz on both sides of the table in every single flippin game, hahaha! I don’t think anyone would be happy about that in reality when game after game after game, our buddy Coteaz is there smacking you in the nuts with his hammer and laser space bird!
You can still take him if you want to, but now it is a choice. You can say, hey, I want to take Inquisitorial agents, but then I can’t take that Rune Priest, too (and yes, you are not original with that idea, either, haha, every Imperial player has Coteaz+Rune Priest or Coteaz+Tigerius just like you, =P). Well, now you can take either, but not both+a primary.
And seriously. Do you want Seer Council+Baron+Coteaz? That army is even more obnoxious and even more likely to go first.
Or gee whiz, how about Taudar+Coteaz? Yeah, Alpha strike inbound!
Or how about every single shooting unit in someone’s list twin-linked and/or ignoring cover due to having 1-4 Divination psykers in the backfield? Sound rad? Not to me.
And think about it. If you both have him, he cancels out one of his best benefits: bonus to seize. Also, how stupid will it be when 2 units with Psykotroke Grenades charge one another?! hahaha, that would actually be funny to see!
So, long story short, I am glad the vote went the way it did as this means you will have more diversity. Again, you can still take Inquisitors if you want to, but now it is a choice and not a no-brainer auto-include for every army that can take him.
And we’re not alone in this!
From conversations I have had with multiple TOs all around the world at this point, a lot of them are discussing this option as well. If they pull the trigger or not I can’t say, but I do know with certainty that we will in all likelihood be seeing a lot of events follow suit.
What? I’m not the only one who thought of including Coteaz?
The flood of content from 6th ed, and all of the choices it offers are nullified if the lists are dominated by auto-includes (as is evidenced by the lists you’re receiving). 6th ed gave us a ton of new content, it’s not too much to ask people to choose 2.
I agree, and so did the voters =)
I have only pity for those people, who buy a new army just because it’s perceived to be the best at the time!
Oddly enought these are mostly the same people who cry out, that escalation is pay to win.
Buying a whole new min-maxed/cheese/spam army just because a change in the current meta seams perfectly fine. But a LoW is pay to win?! (even though most of them are way more efficient money/points wise than a usual codex unit)
How the hell can you even approach 40k with a competitive mindset, when a solid Taudar list WILL beat a weak chaos Mutilators/Warp talons list 90% of the time! (with both players having the same skill level and luck)
Ok I got a little bit carried away here…
Anyway I came here to say that I’m a huge Frontline gaming fan and very thankful that you stayed levelheaded during this whole (ongoing) escalation “crisis”! Frontline, Adam B form TheDiceAbide, BoK of course Nafka are the voice of reason in these times, where everyone seems to go crazy over a hobby with toy soldiers.
Thanks! Glad you like our content.
We will all be fine and get through this stuff. It’s just a transitional phase.
And yeah, the Super Heavies are actually really cost to points efficient, actually.
Eff Coteaz in the A
Hahaha, yeah, he’s too good not to take.
Modified kill point mission. HQ’s are worth 4 KP each, troops 1pt, everyone else 2pts.. Make it the primary. Let everyone know ahead of time. Problem solved?
Haha, Coteaz is worth 10! =P
HQs are worth 1 extra KP for each list they are taken in (in exactly the same set up) at the event, after the first. So if 50 people brought Coteaz, he would be worth 50 KPs! That would stop people bringing him 😛
Too bad only 1/3 missions we run have KP in some fashion! haha
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/567609.page
Oh Mike. Hahaha, I don’t know why he’s poking fun of everyone at this point. But hey, his choice.
But, that was pretty funny even if the timing is a bit off, hahaha =P
“Forgings Narratives, Codex: Dark Angels, Vendettas without the lascannon load out, Curbolo is not banned but his FNP only works on a 4+”
hahahahahaha thats great.
Seems ironic that with more choice there seems to be less diversity.
Yeah, too many auto-includes.
You play Tau and really wanna go first? Use the farsight enclave with mirrorcodex +1 seize as the primary, Ally in Coteaz, and the real kicker Vect with 5 warriors, 1400ish points, of Tau (out of an 1850 list that now has a 3+ rerollable Seize. 400ish points is an awful lot (and 3 VPs in those mssions) but letting a battlesuit heavy Tau essentially have first turn, (8/9 chances to seize, and the opponent only has a 1/36 chance) is devastating for alpha strikes, even more so if you spend enough for a ravager for some anti av14
Yeah, that’s another combo that does it. Same with Baron+Coteaz+Vect.
So stupid. Who really wants to play a game like that outside of a purely for laughs game?
Frankie.
That cheese dick..
Haha, fair play!
Actually, even Frankie doesn’t want to do that =P
The Coteaz cometh!!!!
Haha, he saw you coming so he came first!
Slightly off-topic, but still Coteaz related: The only guy I’ve ever played that used Coteaz (only seen him once) was a damned dirty cheater. I caught him cheating three separate times in one game. Never played him again.
Based on this single data point, I can confidently conclude that all Coteaz players are d-bags.
The above sentence is sarcasm and not intended to be interpreted literally. Enjoy.
More seriously: http://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_on_the_paradox_of_choice.html
The paradox of choice, nice reference!
I think you should just allow everyone to have a Coteaz for free. That is the only way to make it fair.
Hahaha, nice!
I understand the decision, but it bums me out that you couldn’t take advantage of the Red Hunters’ special rule regarding Grey Knights or Sisters.
You can still take Inquisition+Red Hunters, but you just can’t take all three. Honestly, it is worth the sacrifice to not see Coteaz in every list (IMO).
So if you have Imotekh and Coteaz you seize on a 4+ re-rollable? Now thats dumb…. Enless of course there are some of those pesky green skins in your opponents army! ok can someone explain how GK Crons are allies of convenience but crons cant ally with Inquisition? Thanks GW you sure are thinking things through…
You can already do that, since GK and Necrons can ally with each other.
Also, the Inquisition codex is Come the Apocalypse with Necrons, so you *can’t* do that with the new formation style Inquisitors anyway.
I think he only just realised that that is a possibility.
That’s the point he was making – that it’s odd for Inquisition to be “Come the Apocalypse” with Necrons, when Grey Knights (with all the same Inquisition stuff, barring 3 items and some Warlord traits) are Allies of Convenience to them.
First off, 2 thumbs up for getting the LVO on the road, Reece! That’s an impressive job and i do hope people appreciate all the hard work that’s behind 3 days of good fun. So sad i can’t make it, but i’ll keep spreading the word nontheless.
Regarding all the fuss about the new books, it really seems odd why people get so worked up about their little toy soldiers. Nowadays, GW is a model making company, selling model kits to assemble and paint. That’s basically it. If you want to, you can play a silly game with them, too, using the ruleset they provide. Or use some other rules, maybe even make your own. All perfectly fine with them, as long as you buy their product. When playing by their rules, every publication explicitly states how the game design team thinks these rules should be used: to provide fun and a happy time pushing plastic toy soldiers around. If in doubt about anything, roll a die to settle the matter and keep on playing. That’s it. No rules lawyering, no prevailing opinion needed, nothing. Just a bit of common sense and sportsmanship.
What people like Reecius and many other TOs do is a much tougher job than most internet warriors out there will ever understand: to provide said fun pushing little toy soldiers around for those who cherish the illusion of actual, sporting competition over simply rolling a dispute off. And that’s not easy to achieve, as many many comments here or elsewhere around the community show. Of course e.g. Coteaz is something you’ll see on the tabletop quite a bit, of course people will try and bring the cheese to best others, of course do D-weapons have the potential to suck mightily, etc. etc. I think the guys at Frontline have opened a can of worms with their alterations to the ruleset, yes, but a can of worms they had to open, it was. Again: i’m absolutely sure the LVO will be a fun event for most attendees and Reece goes to great lengths to provide it in all conscience, as his comments here clearly show. But splinters must fall and i’m pretty confident they won’t fall for naught.
That was a very thoughtful comment, Jan, thanks!
We do try our best to be even handed and provide the most fun for the most people and listen to everyone’s input. it isn’t easy to do as most people look at the game from the point of view of themselves as players, not as themselves in a community of players. It is hard to make that shift in perspective until you are on the other side of the fence.
The LVO will be awesome. I mean, come on, it’s Vegas, friends, games, booze, gambling…haha, what’s not to like? Sometimes right after a big shake-up, people focus on what they think is being taken away and miss the forest for the trees.
I think we will have some fallout, it is inevitable, but after folks calm down they will probably come around. I hope so at least. Regardless, we will still have fun playing this silly game!
Thanks for the commentary.
GW is making it very difficult for TOs to avoid using some sort of comp. Just when I thought I’d got the rules pack sorted for mine I realise that I’ve got to make rulings on Inquisition, Escalation, FW units, etc etc.
Interesting to read how other TOs are handling it. Out of interest what are you doing about Escalation?
We aren’t using Escalation or Stronghold Assault at the LVO, but are open to it in future events. It was just too soon.
Alternative suggestion: change the name of Seize the Initiative to “Grab the Initiative”. Make it a 6+ with no option to modify or re-roll it….
Am I the only one who sees the reroll to seize as the least important part of Coteaz’ kit? When did going second being better most of the time fall out of favor? Especially with good amounts of LoS blocking terrain like you guys have for the tournaments, getting an alpha strike on turn 1 that is super effective is pretty hard. Meanwhile, having the last chance to grab objectives (and first chance to pounce on enemy flyers) is quite literally game-winning a lot of the time.
I usually prefer to go second, myself. But I know that is why a lot of folks plan on taking him.
I think it’s funny that coteaz was 100% chosen over a regular inq. with servo skulls. I guess if you are white scars, daemon dogs, or even draigo wing and some good d3 rolls you have nothing to fear. No one thinks scout is OP.
A lot of them were taking Coteaz and him too!
Ill wage I’ve played more games with Coteaz(at least at tournaments on the West Coast). And out of those games NO ONE ever rolled a double 6 to seize. Just an FYI.
Yeah, he gives you a 97% chance of keeping first turn.
In Reno we call that roll “box cars” and it pay 30-1 odds on a crap table. 30-1 odds is just short of roulette and keno type payback ratios.
Coteaz’ best advantage in gameplay is the “I’ve been expecting you”, or the threat of it.
Why not just ban Coteaz if he is used in a 3rd detetchment. My wife plays Sisters with IG allies and then adds in Coteaz and an OMI into her Sisters units. It is the only way her sisters army has access to Div. Psycic powers and it’s not OP. All it does is attempt to make a sub-Tier 1 army competative. Imperial Armies are generally outclassed right now by Xenos and Deamons any way. Why not help the Imperium. This rule (atleast for now) only negatively affects Imperial armies, none of whom have acces to things like a Tau Buff Commander, the Grimiore of True Names, or a Seer Counsel. You think Coteaz is bad… Buff Commanders, Barron Sathonix (no idea how to spell his name), and Tigeriou are all more powerful… They just happen to come from a traditional codex so we are all cool with that I guess… Surely if your going to comp something there are more broken things you could block.
Well, the objective wasn’t really comp, honestly. The point was that he is so good that everyone will take him and almost everyone can. It impacts Xenos too, as a lot of them can take him as well. The other point was that having unlimited army list building options means that armies will have 3-6 different factions in them which gets bizarre. We feel you should still be able to take him (which you can) but that it should have to be a choice, not an anto-include.