Hey everyone, Reecius here from Frontline Gaming to discuss the dreaded double force org chart in competitive gaming.
One of the things folks were most up in arms about with 6th was the addition of the Double Force Org Chart at 2,000 points and above. We recently played in the very fun Golden Throne GT which ran double force org and Forgeworld at 2K with book missions and can report from firsthand experience what it was like.
In short: it was 99% hype, 1% actual “problems.”
Since ending here would make this my shortest article ever, I shall expound upon that point.
When we had the opportunity to talk to one of the game testers for 40K 6th edition, we were told the game was designed to have the best balance at 1500pts and 2000pts with a double force org. After playing 6th extensively, I have to say I agree with that statement. Why?
At 1500 you can’t really pack in as many of the truly deadly combos. If you want to have any kind of TAC (Take All Comers) list, you have to take only the minimum in each category of essential utilities. At 2K Double FOC, you can REALLY go crazy. However, to unlock the extra FOC, you need another HQ and two more troops, so it does limit the points left over to go nuts for some armies. In general though, the amount of possible combos you can pull out goes insanely high. Throw FW into the mix and wow, the list and unit combinations goes absolutely bananas, effectively infinite. So, to take a TAC list, you have to bring tools to face all of the myriad lists you will potentially be facing. You need flexibility. In order to do that, you will find yourself running short on points in a hurry, and unable to really go to spam town like some people feared.
The reality of the tournament proved this to be true. Of the final 8 finalists who all went undefeated day 1, all 8 were very, very good players who have all won GT level events individually. Of that 8, only 1 player had a double force org list (Frankie, with 6 Ravagers the cheesy, git! haha). Of the rest, there was only a handful of FW units here and there, I had a Dreadnaught Drop Pod carrying an Ironclad, and I can’t recall any of the other players having any at all, but we’ll assume there may have been the random unit in there I missed.
Almost everyone in the finals had a “normal” list and fought through some really crazy flyer spam lists, skimmer spam, Land Raider Spam, etc. that we saw at the tournament to get to the finals. Mike Bass even made it there with bog standard Chaos, no allies and only a single Hell Turkey!
What does that tell us? That as much as the internet likes to bellyache that the list is what wins tournaments, it really is the player as tournament after tournament has shown us. The same faces in the finals, all playing different armies, wildly different format and yet we see almost all balanced armies going the distance. The finals was my Space Marines with Wolves vs. Mortetvie’s Eldar and Tau. Neither of us had double force org, and I had a single FW unit. The fear was largely unfounded.
The players that brought the super top heavy lists with 6 Manticores or what have you, were left with deficiencies in other areas. At a certain point you start to get diminishing returns on spam units and leave yourself even more vulnerable to that bad match up where you face someone who doesn’t care about your spammed unit. What Double FoC with FW at 2K does allow is an incredible breadth of list building opportunities! You can go crazy with it! It was almost overwhelming to write my list as my brain was exploding with potential ideas and combos and fun stuff you could run, but always with that thought that you needed balance to face all of the other crazy combos others might bring. Much like Warmachine, balance came in everyone having OP armies.
So in short: don’t fear the double FoC or FW. It was very fun and I look forward to another event like it! Thanks to Rob and his crew for the fun event and congrats to Adam for winning it all! I will never, ever forget to get out of my transports on turn 5 again, hahaha!
For sake of being a devil’s advocate on this; The “fear” comes from the increased possibility of running up against a hard rock to your scissors when facing double force org. I shuddered when you said “six manticores” since I know that I would be hard pressed to face that with my standard TAC list (granted, running a mid level 5ed codex). Ooooh, can I go second on hammer and anvil with no night fight against that list, please?! 🙂 I also could have probably thrown my hands up in dismay at the thought of facing Frankies mega cheese low brow meta destroying inbred baby manatee molesting six ravager list. In the long run of a six round tourney, those wild and zany lists that abuse/take advantage of the double force org will run up against their own hard counter, but in the meantime they do gut punch a lot of people who would otherwise have a shot at the title. While force org abusers may not make it all the way to the top, I think the fear of facing something that you really have little hope of beating, made worse by doubling the number of “rocks” in the army, is what sucks for people.
Frankie’s list clubs baby seals, too.
I understand that and agree to an extent, however, I think the odds of that actually happening are not super high. In the end, unless the spam unit is cheap (like 6 Ravagers or Anni Barges) it is unlikely to occur.
Is Frankie going to do a write up of his baby seal clubbing list? Would be nice to hear the opinion of someone who did ‘abuse’ double force org
Frankie writes about as well as he reads! Haha, just kidding, he has just been busy but he said he’ll get to it.
I abused the double-FOC! I just didn’t play in the tournament….although I did club Frankie’s list. Poor baby seal. Haha….j.k. 😉
Extreme double-FOC lists do tend to unbalance some armies. However, for a relatively select armies (like necrons), it does actually make them a lot better. 6 annihilation barges is no joke and it’s even less than1/3 of the army!
Good point. I’ll admit to running five elites. It wasn’t overpowering, as it just allowed me to double down on hive guard and Ymgarls.
Yeah, Anni Barges, Ravagers, etc. can be unbalancing. Things that are cheap and good can really go nuts…until you face the hard counter!
I think one of the reasons that you don’t see things spin out of control is for practical reasons. Most people don’t own 6 ravagers or 6 annihilation barges. You never get to use that in games under 2k. So why would you own so many models? Collectors who love display pieces? So I don’t think most people will go out of their way to acquire large amounts of models they’ll rarely use.
The reason why I’m scared of a 2k tournament is running into the guy with 6 freaking warp hunters. Or 6 turkeys. Those lists are clearly beatable if I design my TAC list well. However, they would be super unfun to play.
Fair enough. And, unless this format becomes common, you won’t see that stuff for practical reasons as you said. Money and time being the main limitations. Also, the GTGT requires 3 colors, so a lot of folks wont be bothered to paint the models even if they have the extra money.
well I am that crazy asshole with 50 warp spiders 50 dark reapers, 100 dire avengers, 10 wave serpents, 15 shining spears(a little light now that you can run big squads), now time to order 6 warphunters, a few scorpions and cobras, and the big teese for my GF 3 phantom titans, and franky leave the baby mantas alone, how did he run the ravagers? what mix of disitigrators to dark lances?
Dude, if you brought 60 Warp Spiders that would be legendary! haha
but fortuanately for everyone 50 dark reapers and 50 warp spiders is 2000 by themselves
I fear the 2k points more than the 2x FOC. 2k tourney, i feel like a marathon.
Yeah, 3 hours is a looooong game.
Yeahhhh you reallly don’t wanna play against my 6 AnniBarge list.
And to be fair, we’d be looking at this a lot differently if you hadn’t slowplayed Israel and Frankie’s dice didn’t crap out against you.
hahahahaha, perhaps so!
:p
Also, imagine if Golden Throne was a battlepoint tournament. Ugggggghhh.
No thanks. That would suck.
To be fair I brought two hellturkies!!! No forgeworld, no allies, no fortifications, and no double force org. Just your basic death guard list. GTGT was a ton o fun tho lots of really cool lookin armies. The cheese list of the tourney was a toss up between Frankie’s ravager spam and Forrest with his seven fliers lmao. Word.
Or Nick and his 9 skimmers! hahaha
The other trap that you are falling under and alluded to a little in the discussion after your post is the fact that you are making a blanket statement based on the results of one tournament. In this one specific tournament, running a relatively uncommon format, it was not an issue. The posters are correct however, if this type of format became the norm, a lot of tournament players would invest in the cheesy ultra cheap units. If all of the events you guys run started to play like this, you don’t think I would invest in 3 more ravagers in a heartbeat? Or Chuck 3 more barges? The reality is that some of the crazy, most powerful combo’s, units etc, are still restricted by the 2k level, but the super cheap, nasty units become that much better.
I agree the system would get much, much more gamed over time and with repetition. However, I honestly don’t see that happening.
You are also right that it was a relatively small sample set. However, in 40K, all we ever get is small sample sets. I think it is a good data point though to shape the way we look at this type of format. You are right though, that the good, cheap units only benefit in this format until they meet their hard counter and then they become even more of a liability. For Anni Barges or Turkies, a Land Raider laughs at them for example.
The Warscythe D-Lords, stock Scarabs, tank hunting Gauss (Zahndrekh), and Triarch Stalkers all can help the 6 Barges overcome armor 14. I agree with someone who said if this format became norm, then the abuse would follow.
Fair statement, I agree that it would be gamed as any system would. I just don’t see it happening, honestly. It is a fun change of pace like Ard Boyz was, IMO.
Told ya so.
“Put it on the Table.”
HOWL!!!
Someone said to me, at the GTGT, “now I know why they outlawed the Fortress of Redemption at the Bay Area Open…”. He said this in a moment of weakness and mostly under his breath, but I thought it ironic, because I was 0-3 at that point. This particular opponent was a great sport. He even played through what he realized was, after my first turn of shooting, to be a lost cause. The statement was brought to mind when reading Reece’s article though. Fear lies in the heart of the beholder, there is nothing to fear but fear itself…so on and so forth, etc…etc… Double force org is just like anything, nothing to worry about until you do. Never doubt that your reality is a product of your attitude and conscience execution of your sub-conscious priorities/proclivities. So if you fear the Double Force org in all it’s nasty manifestations then that’s probably what you’re have to go up against first round you fucking Jonah….People should quit bitching about things being unfair because the moment they do I’ll just point to Reece and say “he brought Imperial fists and smoked all our faces(but the Tau guy with the Anachronistic mustache) and a girl won the BAOGT with bath toys… now what fear boy?”
So says Reclusiarch Oadius otherwise known as General Oadius, AKA General/Admiral Oadius,
Holder of the 7 swords of Bayard
Keeper of the 11 keys of Cupswich
Master shit talker of the Wolfbrothers
P.S. was the F.O.R. actually outlawed at the BAOGT and am I supposed to be keeping this PG-13?
P.S.S. sorry Liz, but I’m not sorry about the Mustache comment(because he beat me in the first round.)
P.S.S.S. I’m not exactly sure that Land Raiders laugh at str9 ap2 from anni barges but If Reece’s best men were driving then maybe.
Hahaha, well said!
And no, the FOR redemption was not banned from the BAO, we allow all Fortifications.
And yeah, the Anni Barges can take different weapons, you just usually see them with Tesla Destructors, at least I typically do. But, if my best men were driving them, it’s a totally different story! haha
hhahaah Liz and her bath toys, and how she use’s them. you never finished what happened with your fortess oadius, you missile him off the board and have all your dudemen in the damn thing. I think that if people where limited to taking 0-2 choices in anything but troops for each force org unit choice could calm things down a bit and make people take some mix flavors instead of us all eating a ton of spam
Barring Reece’s (aka devils luck, aka über cooler) list, I think the biggest problem is that it is most easily abused by the already top tier codexes. It just makes the strong stronger. The codexes it hurts are the bottom feeders. Meaning any dex that doesn’t have access to good points efficient troops gets hurt bad by the “troop tax”, basically all MEQ other than SW & GK.
Yeah, that is true to an extent. Books with good and or cheap troops definitely don’t care about double FoC. But, some of the weaker books like Nids and Orks really like it.
As a nid player I definitely wouldn’t consider them weak & they have access to some of the best troops in the game. I’d say they’re top 3rd when played well. See how your WK stands up to 3x psychic shrieks, etc. WS do present a quandary. But I can’t think of any list that can hard counter WS spam right now.
Plus Orks have great troops & are usually taken en masse. 120 shootas is a lot of torrent & fearless board control.
Yeah, and a great troop, points efficient, all around useful…Chaos? Not so much.