Raw Dogger’s back from Kimchi Games with more opinions!
Hello gentle readers, today I want to talk about something that really gets my goat. A topic that really grinds my gears. An issue that violently slaps my nuts (like that’s a bad thing…). The idea that all units should be able to eliminate terminators with ease. For those uninitiated few reading this post who have no idea what a ‘terminator’ is and are wondering why their google search for Gwen Stefani’s iconic Holler Back Girl sent them here, let me take a moment to explain.
A terminator is a 7 foot tall human turned biological weapon called a Space Marine in an incredibly ancient suit of neigh impenetrable armor. These warriors are the finest members of an already elite chapter of 1000 warriors. They carry devastating weapons that are used to fully eradicate whatever is unfortunate enough to be in front of them. In the actual game of 40k they come in at a hefty 40-45 points and you are required to take a unit of 5 (usually). These 5, with a decent weapon load-out will most likely cost you between 225-260 points. Not an insignificant allocation of points. In short, they came to chew bubble gum and kick ass. Just your luck, they’re out of bubble gum.
Unfortunately, for some time now any discussion regarding the merits of a unit will inevitably cause someone to compare said unit with terminators. Usually, it will go something like this,
Newb: Hey guys, what do you think about (x)??
Dork: They’re ok, but they can’t kill terminators.
WHAT. Of course they can’t kill terminators. Do you know why? BECAUSE THEY’RE FLIPPING TERMINATORS, CUNT! BITCH! They cost 40 points per model. Oh, I’m sorry you feel your 15 point model sucks because it cant easily eliminate my terminator models. I just don’t get why people feel that they’re unit of (x) should for some reason cost half the points of other models and be able to go toe to toe with them. When a Banshee costs 40 points (or more with weapons) give me a call.
I would like to go further and claim that terminators are now TOO easy to kill. Yes, they have a 2+ save, but at toughness 4 they are fairly easy to wound and with the prevalence of plasma weaponry (another article) their 5+ invulnerable save will get you dead more than 50% of the time. At toughness 4, you are taking a lot of armor saves. How many 1’s will you roll on 10 dice? 2 most likely (or 5 in my case). Even the ubiquitous storm shield/thunder hammer terminators are toughness 4. In order to have them survive past the 3rd turn you are forced to take them in large numbers, which will eat up your points right quick. I would propose making terminators HARDER to kill. Fuck, at 40 points, they better be! How about toughness 5? Why are they the same toughness as marines in regular power armor? Maybe making them come with 2 wounds standard? Lower point cost? I would like to see them move to a 2+/5+ Feel no Pain that can be taken no matter what type of weapon causes the wound. Something. ANYTHING that will make them better reflect the fluff that is written about them. Also, why is Dante not eternal warrior and why is he initiative 7 but the FAQ gave him a power axe? Why women be shopping! TELL ME ASSHOLES! Ok, I’m sweating now.
Next up! Kublacon 1500 point tournament with Azrael and Friends!
Agreed !!!
I think that Terminators should simply be cheaper. 40 points used to be ok but now all the new codexes are so much cheaper. Marines in general are getting pissed on right now, here are some examples:
1. Com Dante (225 pts) is S5 AP2 Unwieldly yet Com. Farsight (165 pts) is S5 AP2 at I5… please explain GW (and I have actually e-mailed their FAQ dept. to ask for this to get fixed)
2. a Power Fist is S8 AP2 at I1 for 25 pts, yet a War Scythe is S7 AP1 ARMOR BANE at I2 and is 10 points, (in what world is a PF 2 and a half times better then a War Scythe?)
3. for 15 points a Space Marine can buy a Power Weapon, for those same points a Necron Lord can buy Mind Shackle Scarrabs… (not even close to fair) or he can buy a War Scythe and actually come out 5 points ahead…
4. Fire Warriors teams of 10 are roughly the same cost as 5 Tactical Marines… 10 shots S4 Rapid Fire at 24 vs. 20 shots Rapid Fire S5 at 30… yes marines are better in combat, but look at the edition, how often is that going to matter in a game, Tacticals never get into combat unless things are going poorly. Xenos armies are paying next to nothing for troops that are just as killy if not more killy then theri Marine counterparts.
6. Helldrakes make running massed MEQ a liability. The logical counter it to use cheaper troops to water down the effectiveness of the HD… of wait, we can’t, while even the (cheaper) Necron Warrior gets a ReAn. roll to atleast get some save against these things.
5. Eldar Jetbikes are less points then they were, 50ish points for a scoring unit with a 3 up save, these guys got BETTER AND CHEAPER,… explain how this is fair GW? if things get better they should logically get more expensive.
Baal Viper,
I’m going to start emailing you for info before I write articles because you came up with A LOT more info than I ever could! Haha. The balancing issues are a real problem right now. Point costs seem to be decided upon by the writers of the codicies without any consideration for what similar items are costed in other codicies.
Baal viper,
1.dante will most likely strike at I in next codex but you also pay for the over abilities and wargear you get, ye farsight gets bodyguard but they get exespive easy and a plasma rifle but you get 2+/4++, descent of angels,make Sanguinary troops a inferous pistol and also make an emeny character worst by -1 ws, bs w and a.
2. well a powerfist dose double your strenght when a warscythe only adds +2 but I never liked powerfist but I do think they cost to much.
3.every army gets their cheap and ridiculous stuff like necrons mind shackle scarabs, grey knights and psychotroke grenades.
If you don’t won’t to risk them then try shooting them or avoid them if you can you don’t need to kill them to win the game.
4. you have to remeber compared to fire warriors you are +2 WS +1 BS +1 S +1 T +2 I 3+ save also atsknf only for 6 more points.
on average 10 fire warriors deal the same amount of damage to sm without marker light support as 5 sm do to them.
5.wait until your codex comes out because your things will get cheaper and better too.
6.only 2+ save units or things with invulnerable save have a chace agaisnt the heldrake which everyone knows is ridiculously good and remeber if you break the necrons or wipe the unit out they don’t come back.
1) agreed, Codex Creep but also Marines suffer due to multiple codex with same material making it harder to make wholesale changes without WTF responses (e.g. A change to Terminator armour in the upcoming SM codex would make DA players go WTF as they wait for Deathwing to get the same toys)
2) agreed, Codex Creep, also in some codex it is odd that the same weapon is the same cost for a 1W character as a 3W hero, e.g. Dark Eldar agoniser is 20pts regardless of who takes it.
3) agreed, 6th ed issue as all codex pre 6th are under the impression that power weapons are better than they now are. Issue identified in 1) is at fault for slowing down the overall correction of this. However special cc weapons are generally cheaper for units poor in assault. necrons were designed to be poor in assault but it just hasn’t turned out that way due to edition and those broken mindshackle scarabs.
4) Fire warriors seem under costed by at least 1pt to me mainly due to weapon range. ATSKNF is a big benefit for Marines and I’ve found the best counter to Fire Warriors is finding a way to kill the Ethereal and then make them break.
5) Helldrakes! Agreed, hopefully more codex = more ways to kill them! Tau and Eldar can put out enough markered or high St twin linked shots to take them down. Only answer for Marines right now is to mech up and ally in Tau while taking multiple Storm Talons and/or Terminators… It ain’t pretty. Forge world makes it a bit better for pure Marines.
6) Jetbikes – yup awesome but nasty model! Only real issue is leadership, kill one or two and unless a Farseer is in there they run easy and they suck in assault. You may say they’re too fast to assault but with such short ranged guns they either do nothing but objective grab or they have to take a bit of a risk and get in fairly close to your army… Close enough if you have jump troops.
Yes, yes a thousand times yes!
http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/slow-clap-gif.gif
“Why women be shopping!” and “OK, I’m sweating now” absolutely made my day.
Oh yeah, and your point is bang on. Termies should be MOAR SCARY PLZ!
The current cost of terminators is high due to them coming with a power fist standard. When the new space marine codex comes out, I am sure that the base cost of terminators will be decreased and then options given for customization.
Will that make them more of an attractive option? Probably not. Chaos terminators are cheap and not that many people take them. Given the 2+ save, taking a small unit of terminators is a decision based on how lucky you feel about rolling 1s.
Your solution about giving them T5 is not really going to help against plasma guns, melta guns, shuriken weapons that wound straight up on 6s, lascannons or most other low ap weapons. There aren’t many low S high AP weapons out there.
So then the question is, how cheap do you need to make terminators that they can be taken in high numbers? That might be an answer, but then if you’re spamming terminators you’re going against fluff too. The Imperium is mentally challenged, so it’s forgotten how to make terminator armor and tie its shoes. According to fluff they shouldn’t be fielded in large numbers due to how precious they are.
Bogalubov,
You make a lot of good points. With each new codex it seems to be becoming EASIER to kill them (i.e. shuriken weapons and the giant Tau strength 8 AP2 large blasts). I really feel that giving them 2 wounds would help (not against St.8) but ultimately if they were less points they would be a better option. I really, REALLY want them to be better since I own so many and they look so cool but honestly, I cannot justify taking them anymore since they are so easy to take down.
In general agree. Strictly from a competitive perspective Dark Angels terminators are over costed. If you analyze them they about on par for surivability with similar models like tacticals at the same investment in points, versus small arms fire and suffer against AP2 weapons. That i think it mostly fine but the big problem is that they sacrifice a lot of offensive firepower in the process. Terminators just don’t do enough damage in shooting/assault and are too slow in the movement phase given they are no more robust than an equivalent amount of points in tacticals.
There are many ways to fix this but to be honest these things go in cycles, every unit has it’s day in the sun and the shade. Besides every one has terminators so GW wants you to buy new models.
Now Dark Angels have the Ravenwing alternative but it will be very interesting to see what they do with vanilla marines to keep the shooting damage output high.
I used to see the Space Marine Codex as the golden standard that all the other books were measured against in terms of game balance. That has obviously been thrown out the window by GW playtesters but I have high hopes for the new SM book atleast. Terminators going to 2 wounds or coming with FNP, or 4 ++ would all go a long way toward making them really good again. I personnaly think they need 2 wounds. Paladins are very good but can easily be countered with high S shooting, but are still a competative unit based on TDA. The real area Paladins excell is when taking small arms fire, which I think fits the fluff of TDA. Currently you are paying alot for that 2+ save when a lowly Chaos Herald can get an AP 2 close combat weapon that strikes at intiative for a wopping 10 POINTS!!! which is an utter slap in the face to all Marine players everywhere but apparently GW does not care. With AP2 being so wide spread I feel that the 2nd wound or a better inv. save is needed.
Since you talk about Banshee in here so i am going to ask this question. Why people thinks Banshee suck? I think they are one of the most OVERPOWER and Buffed unit in Eldar. For 15 point you got a power weapon and a rending pistol that strike at I5 with WS4 that reroll runs, charge , +3 on runs and a mask on top of that. Just because Eldar God did not give people an “easy” button to use Banshee that does not mean Banshee suck. O NO, someone makes me thinks how to use Banshee. If that not enough, for 20 points u got your AP2 St 5 with more options to add. That is the definition of OP.
Grenade: Charge a unit w I6 in cover, Banshee just strike at the same time. and if you really want grenade then add an IC .
Assault Ram: Waiting a turn outside of a transport or move on foot, is that the new mission impossible? Is it a good general should able to manage that?
I agree Banshees are very good, Alex. My ONLY issue with them is that they strike simo going into terrain, which stinks for a unit that is so fragile. However, if you use them as counter attack, where not having grenades isn’t such a big deal, I think they are excellent! Plus with Prescience and possibly Doom? They are very good.
yep simo in terrain but that where generalship comes in. Where the different between a good player and an avg player. I think Mr.s Kelly purposely not put grenade with Banshee. Everyone have their way to work around it
Yeah, not having grenades again means there is no clear winner here. You have to choose between them, scorps, shinning spears, and Harlies, etc.
I like how the different units make you choose a play style instead of making one unit obviously better in every situation.
I think the only way I would actually run terminators right now would be in a Blood Angels army. 10 termies with thunderhammer/storm shields and a Sanguinary Priest. That’s a 3+ invuln with a 5+ feel no pain. Again, this doesn’t address the prevalence of st. 8 AP 2 weapons out there but it makes them a bit more survivable to the plethora of cheap plasma and small arms fire.
Honestly, this article is filled with mindless bullshit. Should terminators be better? Sure. Right now they are too expensive for what they do. But this “THEY ARE SO TOUGH IN THE FLUFF WHAT THE HECK” talk is really fucking annoying. If you were fielding a space marine force that was fluff equivalent, it would be 20 marines, firing S8 bolter rounds while boasting 3++ rerollable saves. Hell, to make it fluff equivalent, lets just make you smash those 30 TH/SS terminators you left out in the open. After all, terminator armor is a priceless equipment that you can’t ever replace. You fluff bunnies need to take a step back and realize that the fluff makes very little logical sense and it certainly does not translate well into a game of this scale. Get use to it.
I think you missed the joke, AboveAllLogic. Raw Dogger writes humor articles.
AboveAllLogic, you actually are the only one who really GOT what this article was about. The rest of these idiots totally missed the point! Make sure you subscribe to my blog!
I remember the good ol days of Termis having 3+ on 2D6 and mark of Khorne making that 2+ on 2D6. Sure that was back when weapons had armour modifiers not just you get it or you don’t but it still meant wounds from bolters and las guns were rare.
The assault mechanic sucked balls back then so it wasn’t all rainbows but Terminators had the right ‘feel’, the feel that you needed to throw a lascannon with its -6 armour modifier into it to kill one. And remember, back then, cover affected to hit rolls so a Termi in a ruin was no joke!
Sigh.