Signals from the Frontline #658: The Marine Meta

15 thoughts on “Signals from the Frontline #658: The Marine Meta”

1. Reece

   After dropping $40 bux on the new Shrike model and building him up how I thought he looked good (ie helmet swap and chopping down the absud looking Jersey barrier)

   I’m now being told I’m hobbying for advantage. Not to mention the multitude of other RG players likely doing the same thing as those were the 2 biggest critiques of the model.

   Shrike is still the same size as any other Primaris character just with a modified scenic base. Which some designer made irrespective of the rules.

   So is the ITC now in charge of deciding how I can build my new models? I have to put every single option piece of kit on every model?

   I thought the intent of modelling for advantage was to avoid situations of using clearly date and out of production models that were considerably different to the current one?

   This seems a bit absurd given the other factors like Shrike is far from the scariest guy in the game and given he benefits from the Character keyword is likely to be surrounded by other models.

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   1. Who said we were making you do anything, lol? I was just making a comment on it.

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      1. After 2 regional reps said it was modeling for advantage and one went as far to say don’t bring the model if I don’t add the height back…

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         1. it’s not an ITC ruling but it is clearly modeling for advantage. You are taking the model as it was sold to you and modifying it to make it harder to shoot. That is, in the clearest possible sense, modeling for advantage.

            Now, the next question is: is it fair? Well, I would say not, having your model put on a giant base is not fair, but, as the rules now read, there’s not much wiggle room on that.

            RAW almost always creates feels bad scenarios. However, RAW is also the easiest way to play the game. It’s a sticky situation for sure.

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            1. What rule would you be referring to? I haven’t seen a rule where GW says I can’t make minor modifications to my own models to play. GW has said multiple times it makes models first and the rules follow. It’s unlikely the sculptor add that with the intent oh yes this is require for the rules of the games no one better remove it. You are in a unique position to know this well.

               Counter to your point (and even if I was concerned with it) its actually modeling for disadvantage leaving it. Look at the rest of the Primaris line up he’s the only one on an absurd looking base. So you are making an arbitrary decision on some artistic piece of the model vs the actual model which is a Primaris Chapter Master which we’ve seen plenty of other versions without the base.

               The dumbest part of the argument is that Shrike isn’t even that strong or durable of a character. So any advantage by possibly be being able to hide I’m for a turn or two is kinda moot. There’s way bigger flaws in the game then taking such a black and white view on this.

               What about my warsuits I just built? They’re kinda squat because the legs articulate should I have built the tin soldier so it’s easier for them to be seen? Or not including power pack banners or purity seals? Or what about my metal Mordian collection? Will they be banned because they’re ever so slightly smaller than the current GW plastics?

               If top players start taking Shrike on low bases and winning because of that I’ll eat my hat.

               I spend most my time modelling and hobbying. I attend events to meet new people and roll some dice and if I go 2-3/4 (w-l) then I call it a fun weekend. I play lists thay I think are fun and look good. But if the itc wants to go full competitive that’s fine I can always get games without having to spend money and lose a whole weekend.

               Seems odd to draw such a line in the sand which starts impacting hobbyist ability to play their models in what is an expensive hobby to begin with and with a minority of players aiming for top tables.

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            2. There is no GW rule that you cannot convert your models.

               There is no GW rules that you cannot field your Ork Boyz army on 25mm square bases.

               There is no GW rule that you cannot bring 8 detachments and 9 Plagueburst Crawlers in your 2000 point army.

               They are all ITC (or other TO)-unique bans/houserules/limitations (though some of them taken verbatum from GW’s list of event-restrictions in the section where they strongly encourage TOs to houserule stuff as they see fit to adapt the game to their taste and needs).

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            3. There are no rules saying you can’t use old models of the (now actually) big monsters like Greater Daemons or Hive Tyrants.

               But when a mirror match (not necessarily 100% mirror) happens with one player having new models and the other having old models, it goes like this:

               A) Old models start first. They shoot the unhide-able big monsters on the opponent side inflicting major damage

               B) New models start first. They stand still or move up since they can’t shoot the small old models that can easily hide. Then the old model players goes and shoots the un-hideable big monster anyway.

               It’s a big difference. Hope GW comes out with concrete rules:
               1. Use the newest sculpt or modify the old ones to match the new sculpt measurements (or use the old models for something else of similar size – like daemon princes)
               2. Basing chart.

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            4. I understand that, but that’s not that case here with old vs new /current model.

               It is the current model, of which we’ve already seen at least 3 Primaris CMs before and 2 more on the way non of which have the same scenic base
               But in this one instance it’s been deemed he must be perched 1″ off the table despite being the actual figure being the dance dimensions as the other.
               Nor is he any more over powered that the others.

               The stance effectively has become you can make 0 changes to your model if we perceive it to be an advantage. Without even actually thinking about if and how much that might be. It is also implying that anyone doing so is cheating.

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   2. Reece was just lamenting the fact that the terrain rules mean that you are rewarded to make your model a small as possible.

      I personally agree that the model does not look good the the base provided but it seems that GW is going to be pushing elaborate bases on character units moving forward. Just look at the new pointy eared characters and the previewed Sisters.

      So without better rules people will be choosing to run models without bases that are part of the model/pose that GW designed for it. Not because they don’t like the look of them but because the rules make it a true detriment.

      Case in point the Necrons Cryptek model released last year is really high and even tho it is infantry it can not fit in a lot of building ruins. (Rule stats if it can not fit it can not go there. ) So if you want to use that sweet new plastic not FineCrap model you better cut that base down so he can stay with you troops. Sad but that is what the game state is pushing for.

      This is why Reece seemed exasperated talking about it.

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      1. Yeah, exactly, buddy. It’s a frustrating situation. Like, I 100% get why people would want to take the new models off of the massive bases but it also clearly gaining an advantage.

         The best of both worlds, to allow creative freedom and not have it impact the game is to, as others have said, have GW tell us what base sizes and such should be used for matched play and to have terrain rules that don’t punish you for making cool models.

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         1. If GW does not bring sweeping change to the interaction of models and terrain maybe a simple rule of if GW still makes and sells the model then the new model can be made down to that size.

            This way you can not have a tiny avatar of Kane’s running around but if they continue to stamp out the FineCast of a smaller model then you can choose to model your plastic one no smaller then that.

            As long as they continue to sell it people can use it and there is nothing stat wise different between the two models. I don’t think people being given a real advantage by not getting the updated model makes the game lesser to enjoy (new models are always nice to see on the table).

            I am sure the model team had no interaction with the rules team on the overall size of the model, they make what they think looks good pose wise with other models around it that seem to complement the models (see the Booby G and Abby. See Jane vs D) I don’t think the terrain rules ever cross their minds.

            Also if like you say make the rules more abstract and theater of mind like you can have the best of both worlds. Till that time this will be a controversial topic unfortunately.

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2. @Reece- Check out games like infinity and malifaux when it comes to model size heck even warmachine got it right. If the ITC is looking for rules ideas. I know you don’t write the rules but you do have GW ear on some issues.
   All those games have artistic models in various poses , some heroic (warmachine) some crouching / hiding (infinity) . What they have in common is a height scale. Generally 1″ , 2″ and 3″ for most infantry sized models or go off if you can see any part of the base not the actual model. This uniformed system of measurement lets players model a model however they want and it is doesn’t matter how it is put on a base or converted . You can go to either extremes; infinity and malifaux uses handy measurements on each profile to say how tall a model is and is considered to take up its entire base. Warmahcine is a bit more abstract on the height but again its about the base .
   IDK if gw has ever thought about just making it about the base being in line of site ( I vaguely remember a few editions ago it had a rule about that …)
   Regardless even if ITC or gw had a “base” rule this would let players play with any of their models so long ( prepare for the rage )as the had clear printed rules on which base sizes models should be on.
   Yes people will grumble about rebasing but I came from 8th to aos so they can devour a sack of richards. No one rule will make everyone happy but if the game wants to start getting o a competitive scene there has to be some unanimity in models. You don’t play halo and try and figure out which spartan has the best height advantage.

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   1. I agree with pretty much all of what you said here. Terrain rules that don’t punish cool models and clear rules on how to model/base minis would be awesome.

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      1. But in the meanwhile the answer should be no to everything because its simple to apply blanket rulings then use some discretion to understand the difference between agregious abuses of modeling for advantage and minor changes for the aesthetic for the model.

         With that logic all non GW models minis should be banned (Eg anvil, kromlech, victoria).

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         1. In some events they are, haha.

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