rvd1ofakind is back with a review of the Elites, Fast Attack and Heavy Support choices from the Daemons Codex. As always, check the Tactics Corner for more great reviews and articles!
I use 4 things to review these units:
- Tournament results
- Mathhammer
- Top player opinion
- Personal experience
Tournament results: (deamon prince is mostly thousand sons)
Mathhammer: (everything is by pts value, so when I say something is durable and you see it is T3 6++, remember – without points cost, the stats mean nothing)
So after the Troops and HQs let‘s start on… as I like to call them “the others…”. I‘ll be comparing almost all of them to troops because they‘re usually just troops on a mount, chariot or mutated to beasts. Disregarding datasheets completely, let‘s look at what troops have over everything else:
- Objective secured
- Needed for the best detachment to get CP – battalion
- Smallest bases – great for moving between enemy models to snipe characters, easier to maneuver and fit the most bases in combat range
- Largest squads – great for board control and buffing with “every model gets +attack” type of stuff and hard to get “kill one” off of if you position them properly by stringing them out and removing them out of range.
- Infantry – being able to interact with all terrain most efficiently and walk through walls
- They have 1 wound allowing you to make a 1 wound model army with characters so your opponent‘s anti-tank is wasted
That‘s a LOT of positives for troops. Those Elites, Fast Attacks and Heavy Supports will have to work really hard to beat that… well…
FYI: a lot of the points follow-ups after ratings might seem a bit too far, however most of the units can‘t be spammed that hard because of the rule of 3 and non-troop chaos units are so much worse than troop ones that a lot of top players have abandoned chaos and moved to eldar, nids, etc. because even a year+ after the CSM codex and after going up to 5 pts it is still 2000pts minus hqs divided by cultists and tzangors to get the best list(Nick Nanavati‘s opinion). So those non-troops need to be CRAZY good to see play or the troops in general(not just chaos) need to be toned down a lot.
Bloodcrushers:
Description:
- They (still) can‘t footslog as they have 8‘‘ movement with no way to increase it. They have to deep strike and they have a 3D6 charge if they take the banner and use 1cp to buff it. Sounds familiar? It’s the bloodletter (on a horse) bomb (except worse in almost every way possible). In CA they’ve gained 1 wound and stayed the same pts wise. Buffs: DP (great, re-roll dem 1s, you want Skullreaver anyway), Herald (str 7 doesn’t change much as with their 0 AP mount attacks, they don’t really want to be punching vehicles and monsters), Skulltaker (makes them 2+ to hit which is more important as they don’t get that for just having a big squad)
Tournament results and top player opinion:
- Saw no competitive play
Mathhammer:
- Durability: Bad. Better than Bloodletters against lasguns (barely) and bolters (almost equal) and a lot worse vs anything with AP or more than 1 damage.
- Damage: Average. A squad of 30 letters (235 pts) will do more damage fighting twice than a squad of 9 Bloodcrushers (448 pts) that are buffed by Skulltaker against any target. Ouch.
Personal opinion:
- One of the worst units in the book… still. They are just (a lot) worse Bloodletters. The only things they have going for them is that they cost less CP per point to deepstrike if you take a max squad and they are harder to kill as a max squad unit than a max squad of letters… but not by much. Certainly not enough to make up for a gigantic list of cons over Bloodletters (which by the way, aren’t a Meta breaking unit either so that’s how far down crushers are).
RATING:
- Sub-optimal. It would have to go to 47->25pts so they would be a better bloodletter – which is what they need to be since they lose all the troops perks.
Flesh hounds:
Description:
- 10” move footslogging beat sticks that can deny the witch. CA added the ability for every 5 dogs to buy one auto hitting 8” Assault 1 S4 AP0 D1 weapon for 9pts(since a regular flamer with D6 attacks instead costs 6pts… this could be the worst upgrade in the game). Buffs: DP (great, re-roll dem 1s), Herald (great, str 6 makes them better against T3 screens – which is what they’ll usually fight)
Tournament results and top player opinion:
- Saw almost no competitive play
Mathhammer:
- Durability: Average
- Damage: Average
Personal opinion:
- Don’t let the 10” move fool you into thinking they’re fast. If you start them in LoS – they will die to the enemy shooting. If you hide them out of LoS (first floor of ruin usually), they’ll lose about 6” of that movement running around the wall. Since efficiency wise they are just average – that leaves only 1 thing: deny the witch. Now that’s not bad, however daemons usually run a bunch of psykers anyway and those can’t be shot, unlike hounds. Their main competition – Karanak is what should be used instead.
RATING:
- Sub-optimal. They’d have to cost 15->8 pts to be viable in the cultist/tzangor world as doggos have almost no synergy with the army in terms of stratagems. Also the “flamer” upgrade should cost 1.
Skull Cannon:
Description:
- Artillery that can kinda defend itself. Got -10 pts in CA. A DP can buff them but you probably want the DP in the front lines.
Tournament results and top player opinion:
- Saw no competitive play
Mathhammer:
- Durability: Average
- Damage: Below Average
Personal opinion:
- -10 points won’t bring this unit into competitive. It’s still just a worse Helverin: easier to kill, does less damage, is less reliable, has less range, moves slower… and Helverins aren’t even good.
RATING:
- Sub-optimal. They’d have to cost 90->60 pts to be efficient. Need a rule change to be taken in squads.
Flamers:
Description:
- Fragile flyers with 12” flamers (shocked face). Usually deepstrike (as they get shot off the board otherwise), flame and die. Got -3pts in CA. Buffs: Herald (going from S4 to S5 is pretty good as these guys wanna shoot something better than the screen. The herald can buff them with Flickering Flames (+1 to wound) meaning you’ll be wounding most things you want to shoot on a 2).
Tournament results and top player opinion:
- #32 chaos unit
Mathhammer:
- Durability: Below Average
- Damage: Amazing against screen units but you’re using an elite to clear the screen? That’s a bad pts trade
Personal opinion:
- Basically a downgrade from Pinks. Worse durability, same-ish damage, worse range, don’t get buffed by a DP. They’re not that far off from being great but Pinks existing just make them useless. The biggest problem is that flamers want to hit something other than cheap screen units because hitting the screen will always be a bad trade, however with range 12” they only have 3” range over the first unit (screen) so that’s really bad.
RATING:
- Sub-optimal. They’d have to cost 25->18 pts to be comparable to Pinks. They’d then be a scary bomb to drop, however a proper army could still just screen them out for 3 turns and then stomp them.
Exalted Flamers:
Description:
- A character with some strong close range shooting. Got -20pts in CA. Buffs: Herald (to S10 is situational, and flickering flames is better cast elsewhere), DP (just grab the already good Tsons DP)
Tournament results and top player opinion:
- Saw no competitive play
Mathhammer:
- Durability: Bad (as tends to be with characters)
- Damage: Above average
Personal opinion:
- One of the most interesting units in this review. Their anti-horde weapon will usually not be used because you’re paying 45pts for 1 more AP over an already bad Flamer. The anti-tank weapon is not bad by the stats, however it’s held back a ton by being heavy and only 18” range. So the soonest you’ll use it is turn 2, usually at BS4+ to get in range. From then on though – it’s really good as the enemy can’t really interact with it while it keeps blasting away.
RATING:
- Situational. Dropping 20 pts really helped.
Screamers:
Description:
- The fastest model in the book. Very fragile and somewhat hard-hitting with an ability to do a mortal wound or two (maybe snipe a character?). Got -3pts in CA. Buffs: Herald (can’t really keep up), DP (grab the amazing Tsons DP, these guys can screen for him in combat)
Tournament results and top player opinion:
- Saw almost no competitive play
Mathhammer:
- Durability: Bad
- Damage: Average
Personal opinion:
- Wow these guys pay a premium for their speed. Probably still getting punished for the Screamer star in 7th. They are kinda useful to help your big monsters surround a unit but that’s about it. Their mobility is cute but when you can just deepstrike/warptime/nurgling all over the place with chaos – it’s not really that important. WS4 for a CC unit is really bad.
RATING:
- Sub-optimal. They’d have to cost 28->15 pts to have a place as assassins that jump over the screen and punch something important with an even amount of wounds.
Burning Chariot:
Description:
- A fast-ish short range/melee hybrid. Buffs: Herald (to S10 is situational, and flickering flames is better cast elsewhere), DP (grab the amazing Tsons DP, these guys can screen for him in combat)
Tournament results and top player opinion:
- Saw no competitive play
Mathhammer:
- Durability: Bad
- Damage: Average
Personal opinion:
- Wow these guys are bad. Giant base, very squishy, meh damage. The only redeeming quality is chanting horrors but that’s not even close to make them viable.
RATING:
- Sub-optimal. They’d have to cost 110->60 to be efficient but even then they don’t really have a place. Need a rule change to be taken in squads.
Beast of Nurgle:
Description:
- A slow durable beat stick that can deal mortal wounds when units fall back from them. Buffs: Herald (not really necessary since they re-roll wounds anyway), DP (sure, you probably want one anyway), Snaily the Snail (a must have with big beast units)
Tournament results and top player opinion:
- Saw almost no competitive play
Mathhammer:
- Durability: Above average but plaguebearers are still a lot better
- Damage: Bad
Personal opinion:
- The fall back ability is almost meaningless. You pretty much always want to surround stuff in combat anyway. So the strategy is to bait their one model into leaving so combat so it dies if you roll a 4+? I’m confused. This ability does work on FLY units so that’s something, I guess? So this basically leaves them as slow beat sticks with almost no damage? Yeah, they’re bad.
RATING:
- Sub-optimal. They’d have to cost 34->22 to be efficient with Snaily’s help and to be somewhat comparable to plaguebearers.
Plague Drones:
Description:
- A faster durable beat stick. Got a 6 pts increase in CA. Buffs: Herald (not really necessary since they re-roll wounds anyway), DP (sure, you probably want one anyway
Tournament results and top player opinion:
- Saw almost no competitive play
Mathhammer:
- Durability: Average
- Damage: Below average
Personal opinion:
- I’ve seen Plaguebearer armies taking them and I was incredibly confused as to why they give their opponents something to shoot their anti-tank weapons at. They barely move faster than plaguebearers, their bases are big, the damage output is bad – I don’t get it. Post FAQ FLY nerf they are now incredibly clunky around terrain as well. And then they saw another 6pts slapped on to them in CA? OK?
RATING:
- Sub-optimal. They’d have to cost 40->24 to be efficient and comparable to plaguebearers.
Seekers:
Description:
- The book’s turn 1 charger. Got -4pts in CA. Buffs: Herald (must have on steed to keep up), DP (won’t keep up unless seekers live a turn – doubtful)
Tournament results and top player opinion:
- Saw no competitive play
Mathhammer:
- Durability: Average
- Damage: Average
Personal opinion:
- 14”+4.5”+8.5”= 27”. That right there is a turn 1 charge on average rolls… that’s if you get turn 1 of course. Where in lies the problem. However 27” avoids the 24” range anti-horde weapons so the enemy usually has to come to you to shoot them which is them coming into your melee army – so that’s not even that bad because if Slaanesh daemons make it into melee – good luck killing them with their minuses to hit and minus attacks. Honestly these seem pretty legit, however the Meta kinda hates them due to the 2 damage weapons around in the top 3 lists (castellan, lootas and dark reapers).
RATING:
- Situational-competitive. Remains to be seen…
Fiends of Slaanesh:
Description:
- Purely a utility unit. Non-fly units can’t fall back from it and psykers within 12” get a -1 on psychic tests. Buffs: Herald, DP (not essential, fiends are terrible damage wise anyway)
Tournament results and top player opinion:
- Saw no competitive play
Mathhammer:
- Durability: Bad
- Damage: Bad
Personal opinion:
- 14”+3.5”+7”= 24.5”. That’s a way less reliable turn 1 charge than the seekers. Since this unit is very inefficient it is completely reliant on his abilities. The no fall back ability is actually very rarely useful. Most of the time you can surround a unit in combat as you only need 3 models to do so. Also you need to keep the fiend within 1” of the opposing unit so the opponent can just pull casualties in morale away from the fiends and retreat anyway so you can’t actually attack them to risk that. Also fiends often just get shot off the board or just punched off because they’re pretty fragile. You need to run a big squad to avoid that and that’s investing way too much in an inefficient unit that’s only situationally useful. The 12” aura is just too small. Since fiend will very rarely live past turn 3 the opponent will have a screen and psykers about 3+ inches away from it. So when fiends hit the screen, the psykers can just advance away from them if needed.
RATING:
- Sub-optimal. They’d have to cost 42->30 to be somewhat efficient if you value their abilities. I do not value the abilities so I’d only take them if they were about on par with troops – which is about at 20ppm.
Slaanesh chariots:
Description:
- A footslogging beat stick. Buffs: Herald, DP (not essential, but you need them anyway and they move at about the same speed)
Tournament results and top player opinion:
- Saw no competitive play
Mathhammer:
- Durability: Average. Hellflayer is bad
- Damage: Above average against screens. Chariots are bad against anything else, Hellflayers are average against anything else.
Personal opinion:
- So they can’t charge turn 1. They have a giant base (that’s very bad), they’re not durable (so they give up kill one and kill more easily), they don’t do good damage. They’re just really really bad.
RATING:
- Sub-optimal. Hellflayer needs to be 70->50, Seeker Chariot needs to be 50->35, and Exalted Chariot needs to be 80 -> 60. The thing they need the most though is to be taken in squads to not give away kills too easily.
Furies:
Description:
- A semi-fast flying beat stick that gets a god ability depending on their mark. Buffs: Herald, DP (not essential, but you need them anyway and they move at about the same speed)
Tournament results and top player opinion:
- Saw no competitive play
Mathhammer:
- Durability: Below average even with the Nurgle mark
- Damage: Average against screens and terrible against everything else. With the Khorne mark they become pretty good at killing screens but still bad against everything else.
Personal opinion:
- Not efficient so that leaves abilities and mobility. However there are a lot of units more mobile than them in the army and the ability to kill a single model on a 4+ if its unit fails a morale check is meaningless. They have FLY so they could be used if a chaos gunline could be a thing but it’s just not as efficient as imperium or t’au gunlines.
RATING:
- Sub-optimal. They need to be about 8->6 points. Then they’d be faster daemonettes with no synergy.
So there you see the problem that chaos faces. The troops are just way too good and they have a massive amount of troop perks to boost. I don’t think the answer is to lower every non-troop in pts cost. The answer is somewhere between a new codex, a basic game rule change or an increase in troops cost across the board for almost all factions.
The last article will have the big boys: Greater Daemons and the Soul Grinder.
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