Left to Right: Alex Fennell, Michael Brandt, Mark Wright, Sean Nayden, Nick Nanavati, Tony Grippando, Jeff Poole, Joshua Death
On January 26th, 2018 473 players traveled to Las Vegas to test their mettle, and roll dice to determine who could be the best functioning 40k player on 4 hours of sleep. Only 8 remain.
Another year another interesting top 8. We have some familiar faces in the top 8, and also some surprising new ones. I think the story everyone is going to focus on is the 4 Eldar players who dominated their competition with a combined 23-0-1 record though this should not be the case. I think the real story here lies in the journey. For example, Michael Brandt is the only GW community playtester to make the top 8 at the LVO, and could become the most successful one if he wins the entire thing (Good job GW, you picked a good one!). Or if you want to look at Joshua Death, who was just 1 wound away from letting a 5th Eldar player into the top 8. More importantly, a 5th Eldar player (Brad Chester) who could have easily won the entire thing. Lastly I think the real Cinderella story here is Mark Wright, who has never finished beyond 6th place in a large GT, and who has earned more points for his LVO performance than his 3 largest scores combined. With a pure Blood Angels list he is a true underdog story.
Let’s dive into the match ups and see who is going to make it out on top.
Quick top 8 Update: The warp messed with the match up results and Joshua Death’s final game with Brad Chester was recorded incorrectly. Josh Death has been replaced by Brad Chester who will be playing Mark Wright. Also, Alex Fennell is now playing Michael Brandt, and Tony Grippando is playing Sean Nayden. This changes my predictions significantly. Changes will be in red
Quarterfinals Match 1: Nick Nanavati (Ynnari Eldar) vs. Jeff Poole (Alaitoc Eldar)
Nanavati’s Eldar list is a lot more focused on abusing Ynnari rules and the “Cat Lady” Yvraine. He uses a variety of Eldar infantry to overwhelm the opposition and attack from a variety of different positions with a variety of weapons. Wave Serpents give Nick durability and protect his most valuable units. His list is considered by a lot as THE standard Eldar list in the meta right now. Jeff Poole has a unique Alaitoc based Eldar list with 3 Crimson Hunters, Illic Nightspear, and Storm Guardians in Wave Serpents. He still has all the usual suspects in Dark Reapers, Rangers, and Psykers, but also mixes it up with surprisingly solid Eldar-killers in Storm Guardians, and 3 Crimson Hunters for vehicle poaching and distractions. This game looks interesting on paper, but ultimately I think it will come down to whoever can control ruins and the center of the board. (My Prediciton: Nick 32, Jeff 21)
Quarterfinals Match 2: Michael Brandt (Blood Angels w/ Guard Allies) vs. Sean Nayden (Ynnari)
This match up is going to be extremely interesting. Both armies have plenty of bodies, board presence, and are clearly represented in all 4 phases of the game. I think this one, more than any other will come down to player skill. Michael does have a small advantage with his guard allies, but something tells me Sean Nayden is prepared, and is the favorite to win this game. Though this one will be a close game, with a lot of interesting interactions. (My Prediction: Michael 14, Sean 18)
Consider the above if these two end up playing later. For now, I think Michael has his work cut out for him in Alex Fennell. They both have similar lists, but I think Michael’s ability to hide his hard hitting close combat units in buildings gives him an edge (Pablo’s prediciton: Michael wins in a close, but decisive victory)
Quarterfinals Match 3: Tony Grippando (Aeldari) vs. Alex Fennell (Imperial Soup ft. Space Wolves)
The current ITC front runner Tony Grippando has his work cut out for him in Alex Fennell and his wacky Imperium list. Fennell is a veteran and has the experience and skills to beat Tony and potentially ruin his chances at winning the entire ITC, however i’m not sure his list has the ability to. Grippando is running a similar list to Nanavati’s but with some tweaks to fit his own playstyle. Fennell has a character heavy slugfest which is designed to mitigate the opponent’s shooting, while maximizing board presence, and deleting any units that are too slow to get out of the way. This match has a lot of upset potential, and it will come down to a few key charges and Grippando’s ability to spread Fennell out and isolate characters. (My Prediction: Tony 24, Alex 26)
Consider the above if these two end up playing later. Tony playing Sean Nayden is probably a nightmare matchup for Grippando. Tony has the capability of winning, but Nayden pulls out his best at the LVO and this game will come down to more skill than luck. Both players know what’s at stake here, and this will come down to whoever makes the first (and only) tiny mistake. (Pablo’s Prediciton: Nayden in a close game).
Quarterfinals Match 4: Mark Wright (Pure Blood Angels) vs. Joshua Death (Chaos Daemon Soup)
The ultimate underdog, Mark Wright, has his first real challenge in Joshua Death. I won’t jinx this match up too much because I want Mark to win. Josh Death is a serious competitor and 40k veteran. Mark will have his work cut out for him. (My Prediction: Mark wins…and the internet rejoices)
Semifinals Match 1: Nick Nanavati (Ynnari) vs. Brad Chester (Ynnari)
Nanavati held onto the lead early and showed why his list was the best Eldar list at the LVO. Despite going second Brad couldn’t withstand Nick’s early pressure and grab victory.
Semifinals Match 2: Alex Fennell (Imperium ft. Space Wolves) vs. Tony Grippando (Aeldari)
The winner of this match up knew their work would be cut out for them in either Brad Chester or Nanavati, however they never buckled under pressure. There was some controversy in this game, which gave Alex Fennell a chance to become what he did best. A Gentleman. Ultimately Grippando prevailed, but Fennell was the one who took the crowd’s favor. Other than that hiccup both players played very well and showcased their skill at the highest level.
Las Vegas Open 40k Championship Finals: Nick Nanavati vs. Tony Grippando
Instead of going into analysis about this game, i’m just going to list some interesting facts and stakes that this game represents.
Neither Nick Nanavati, or Tony Grippando have ever been to a top 8 at the Las Vegas Open, and have both come very close multiple times. This game will prop either player into the history books as one of the best ever.
Both players are playing for the best Eldar player, with very similar lists.
If Nick Nanavati wins, Tony Grippando loses his lead in the ITC championship race, costing him a $4,00 cash prize.
They are both members of the ETC American team and perform well there consistently.
102 thoughts on “40k LVO 2018 Championships: Presenting the LVO Final Two (Edit)”
So for detachments the warlord doesnt have to be from the most expensive one? Deaths warlord is the changecaster, even though Drath Guard are his main. Ill keep that in mind for future list builds, did not realise that. ?
After that semifinal match. If there is any sort of shenanigans in the final, like manipulating a tie, it’s time to seriously talk about what we are all doing here.
The problem with that type of behavior at the highest levels of play is that it reinforces that “Win At All Costs” stigma associated with tournament events. This is a Games Workshop “endorsed” event (they are sharing footage and promoted the LVO) so it is even more visible. Not sure what exactly can be down about it, but it surely turns people away from events because they don’t want to run into “that guy”, as well as a negative distraction to the event as a whole.
GW will be aware of the situation, but did not comment on it during the life-stream, though it was mentioned in the chat of the life AoS Game.
This was an ITC event with GW being there as one channel and supplier. They did not cover either match. Ultimately, ITC (Reeius etc) will have to decide what measures to take.
The next big FAQ is after Adepticon in March. By then we should know what’s happening to encourage “sportsmanship”. Personally, I’d get rid of the big prizes and just give out certificates/trophies.(The way GW does in the UK). Maybe that would make a difference?
So the top 3 of the LVO are Eldar with the exact same list. WOW. Brilliant.
Out of 500 people, 3 people with the exact same list had the best result. Think about it. Their ONLY losses were them against each other. If this doesn’t prove List>>>>>>>>>>Player Skill, I don’t know what does. Obviously, they are probably great tacticians. But if anyone says “eldar are not completelly broken BS” – they’re delusional. And I mean it to that extent. “They are a bit too good” does not cut it. Completelly. Broken.
Also #ReeceWasRight
2 out of 3 Ork lists had 80+ grots.
I was wrong (mostly because I only played Orks once xD and people were crying about how useless grots were everywhere)
I don’t mean to be rude or to pick on you, rvd, but ultimately you were wrong because you had no idea what you were talking about. That is basically your defense here, that you’d played Orks only once but THE INTERNET says that grots are bad, so you can’t really be blamed for arguing with someone who has an enormous amount of both tournament experience and Ork experience.
What makes your posts frustrating to read is that you don’t appear to have a shred of self-awareness or humility, nor do you let your towering ignorance on a subject stop you from having an opinion that you feel compelled to share and state as objective fact. Again, I have no wish to pick on you or mock you, but I hope you’ll take this as an object lesson on why it’s better to listen and learn rather than argue sometimes. If you would consider applying that lesson to your posts in the Ork tactics forum on dakkadakka, you could learn a great deal.
Oh right… We see Eldar perform well and now they’re broken. Eldar are not broken by any extent. Dark Reapers are. The rest of the Eldar are simply solid, though some things do become quite potent when played as Alaitoc… Overall I would like to see a reaper nerf, but this people are top tier players, I don’t think them winning proves Eldar are broken. Besides, a lot of competitive players prefer highly mobile and hard hitting armies, so I’ve always thought Eldar fit there.
This right here… Eldar are fine, however reapers have several issues. …and once you throw in Ynarri hijinx it gets worse. My round 3 was dark reaper spam and it was the only game I hated playing the entire tournament.
Eldar are fine. 5 out of top 8, top 3 all the exact same eldar list, 2nd place guy got the list 2 weeks ago and didn’t even know how the stratagems worked.
Eldar are fine.
Eldar are not performing “well”. 5 out of 8 is not “well”. 4 out of those 5 having identical lists is not “well”. Top 3 being the exact same eldar list is, again, not “well”
They’re broken. Plain and simple. You don’t go undefeated with 500 players and have the same list go undefeated until it faces the exact same list, so someone has to lose. They players are good. Obviously. However I think any respectable player: Sam, Brandon, Tyler, Paul would’ve done better if they had the same list. If that were to happen, I don’t see 8 out 8 being the same list that unlikelly… Which is bad.
Eldar at the moment and especially ynnarri are one army that awards perfect play and crucifies you if you get it wrong. I’m not surprised that alot of the best players ( and they are great players without question) end up with similar lists optimised.
These are not net lists or win buttons. If you think they are … Try them and see.
These were exact copies. Nanavati talks about it in the interviews how Grippando and Brad Chester straight up copied his list for this event. Not sure how they got it but that has to be really weird for Nick.
Players copy each others lists all the time and have been since net lists dropped. The BCP app, especially if you subscribe gives you access to lists from major GTs its not a big deal to copy someones list, the differenece is player experience with their list.
So from my view the Eldar player that won used his the kost effective in addition to luck. I feel like ever since players have had access to viewing top lists, it has made us all more competitive overall.
The -1 to hit mechanic is a bit too strong and Aliatoc have the strongest version of it with extra stackable modifiers to really double down.
Then Dark Reapers have the answer to it so it can’t even be countered well by other codexes that have that -1 to hit option.
Personally I’d say Reapers need a bit of a points adjustment and the Aliatoc trait should never stack with other modifiers. Then wait a while to see if it needs any more adjustment in the FAQ drop 6 months on.
I agree. The -1 to hit mechanic is bad for the game. When only one army is played competitivly it means there is an obvious imbalance. All the armies with a -1 mechanic are just too good to pass up, to the point that it’s just silly to play anything else.
I think the rule just needs tweaking though, not eliminating. Maybe change it to work outside 18 to 24 inches, so that it still has some utility but is not just automatic blanket protection.
When I am playing chaos I mostly feel like I get punished by the psyker spam *cough wheres my malefics cough* and Dark Reapers. Wave Runners are a bit tougher than I like too. Everything else I am fine with.
Good work FLG. I caught what I could over the weekend, and got to see almost all of the semi-final and final games. Dave and Dave were spectacular commentators. Do they have a podcast or something? They just sounded like seasoned vets, but for the life of me, I can’t find any information on who they are.
Wish I could have made it. But my wife is due to give birth any day now. Hopefully I won’t be able to watch next years stream, on account of being at the LVO!
Tony may have won but his behaviour was appalling. Not only was he one of the most unsporting players I’ve seen on stream, he had unpainted and unbased models, and was obviously slow playing Alex towards the end. I’m really surprised and actually a bit disappointed the flg guys let him get away with that
Yea it’s a real shame. I’m already hearing friends and club players saying “well if that’s what the LVO is like, I won’t bother going next year”.
Reece/Frankie, I don’t envy you guys as you run phenomenal events, but you’ve got a bit of a PR crisis at the moment that could easily spiral out of control if you don’t address this soon
Team America members do not condone this type of play or behavior. There were a lot of current and former team members in attendance who were appalled by these actions and also spoke to Tony afterwards.
Didn’t they specifically say you had to have 3 colors minimum + basing? If he was using unpainted or unbased models how did he even get to use them? They made this whole big deal about a PSA from the LVO organizers blah blah blah.
tldr:
Tony vs Alex. Alex deepstrikes stuff before moving. Tony says you can’t move anything anymore. Alex says “you’ve got to be kidding me. Good game” (however later continues to play)
Tony vs Nick. Tony says he charges after advancing. Nick says you have to you use stratagem when you advance, not when you charge.
Tony “but that’s different from what alex did he…” and yeah. Karma.
I don’t know about people being mad about it. It’s great.
I don’t know man I think I agree on the side or rules lawyer. It can seriously mess with the game if you let an error like that play out like that and not catch it, perhaps applying aura’s to movement that would not have been there to benefit normally.
However if I was the opponent and noticed the honest mistake in time I would be all “Woah a sec dude you didn’t move your other guys yet?” instead of being like “Hahahaha you F’d up I win”.
Tony opened himself up to get beat on any rules mistake he made by his behavior in the vs Alex game, and Nick pounced on it. If Tony had just accepted fair play then there’d be an argument for him but he didn’t.
It’s also that IIRC Tony and Alex agreed to play intent, and because Tony was slow playing Alex was rushing to get his turn done. So, because they agreed on intent and he was rushing, it should have been okay go back or whatnot, but Tony was being a dick.
Honestly, as someone on the fence about competitive play anyways (locally, not GT, but even then the attitude/mindset of competitive play I feel is a 180 from what 40k should be), things like this doesn’t make me want to touch it with a 20 foot pole. I’ll stick to my “scrub” narrative play with people who aren’t trying to slow play or glean any advantage they can to win.
I was in and out of the room doing some hobby so I missed the initial conversation. No wonder the chat was so heated about what happened – it was pretty much entrapment.
Sad sight to see.
Can I put in a request to the FLG podcasters and the public community in general – please do *not* get him onto your podcasts/twitch/blog to make his excuses. Nobody needs it, we can all see what he was up to and he knows it too. No rules were broken other than social rules so we can only really have social consequences; can we just all pretend he does not exist for a while please.
Massive respect for Alex. I think 99% of players in that position would have said a few choice words and gone to have some fun elsewhere in Vegas.
Can anyone explain why Nick’s list from LOV 18 is not illegal – is he taking spirit stone of anathlan/warlord trait on his spirit seer while using Ynnari and having yvrainne as his warlord?
I can’t see any changes in the Xenos FAQ that removes the requirement that Yvraine/Yncarne/Autarch one be your warlord?
You can use the Relic Stratagem to give one to a model even when you don’t have access to the free one. He had Eldar Strats so he could use it to give to the Spiritseer.
The gentlemanly thing to do would have been to say “hold up, have you finished your movement phase?”. Instead Tony will spend the better part of 2018 with a reputation for being a really poor sport, and exactly the sort of player that puts people off going to tournaments.
It looked like he literally just spray painted some of his minis.
Also, in the game against Alex he was using empty bases to represent minis that supposedly broke. Shouldn’t have been allowed to use them imo. Looked absolutely terrible on the stream.
Tony literally asked for it. His petulant response to it as well was particularly amusing as it showed that he only cares about it when it’s in his favour. He would have redeemed himself marginally if he’d said ‘you’re correct, that’s the way I like to play the game’ and moved on. To say ‘that was different’ is such a classic selfish response. That said it’s still only a game and if he can grow up and move on and maybe learn a lesson from it then we should drop it as a community as well. The loss of the money will hit hard, no need to kick him while he’s down.
I dunno. Holding people accountable for shitty behavior is sort of a necessity to counter it. If he can grow out of it, good for him. But otherwise its just well earned bad reputation if it sticks.
With everyone rightly complaining about Tony’s awful conduct, it is worth pointing out that Alex was an absolute gent. In the face of such petulance, it is easy to lose your cool and sink to the same level, but he didn’t and should be applauded for it.
Echo what others have suggested – have a prize for most sporting
I would have told Tony I was not deploying the deep strikers. I was just pre measuring to make sure there was enough room before I moved my army and was just using the deep strike models as counters to mark off the area so I didn’t move there and block the deep strike.
Wow never thought someone not following the rules and getting called on it would be such a huge deal. As for the Eldar shaming, get in line, just another edition where good players win games with good lists, even if its the same list. Eldar have been out for months! No one was crying about OP Eldar lists. Ynnari got nerfed and their still good!!
Tony had all his stuff painted to standard, his Eldar rangers broke off the bases, which for tourney players is a constant battle as models get damaged… he met all the rules for painting and basing.
Ah yes, 5 out of top 8 in a 500 tourny, top 3 exact same list and 2nd place is a guy who got the list TWO WEEKS before LVO and didn’t even know how his damn stratagems worked (and STILL made it to 2nd place???) Balanced eldar lol
I respect your opinion but I personally disagree. Minor damage, such as an arm or weapon breaking off is one thing, and perfectly excusable, but to play with empty bases representing minis is confusing, both to an opponent and spectators.
Standards are important in all aspects of the hobby, from sportsmanship to list writing, from modelling to painting. Illegal lists suffer model removal or disqualification, which is a high but worthy standard. The three-colour minimum evolving to tournament standard with painted bases and easily identifiable faction markings is another progressive standard.
I agree that it’s rough when models break accidentally, but it’s equally rough when you make an honest mistake in your list. With the latter you have to face consequences.
If there is no standard, where do you draw the line? Can someone field an entire 2000 point army with empty bases and a bunch of excuses?
No one is claiming that Tony cheated or broke any rules. He just behaved like a child and will now have a proverbial black mark against his name when he attends future tournaments
This is gonna look great. Here’s the guy you need to be and this is the list you need to play to win. Once everyone plays that exact army we got balance. No wonder they said it is the most balanced edition ever.
I LoL’d for a few minutes with this comment. I am not too worried though, Dark Reapers will get a nerf from this. I hope in the form of an FAQ like Chaos got, but we will see.
IMO, Dark Reapers are only half the problem. It’s the mechanic that gives you extra phases that is what makes this list so overpowering. The only other army that can do this in abundance is Sisters, and the only reason we don’t see then more prevalently is because their production line is extinct. This mechanic is too strong for only a couple armies to have.
*I realize other armies have move/shoot/fight out of phase, but it generally requires a stratagem. Whereas Ynnari does it damn near 3 times a turn and without sounding a command point.
After watching the matches, I believe it isn’t the dark reapers or even the Soulburst itself that is the root problem, it is the fact that Yvraine can cast a Psychic ability that allows for an extra shooting phase or movement on a 5+. It is extremely powerful and gives the Dark Reapers 2 rounds of shooting after they land. It also gives the Ynnari the ability to potentially cast 3 “move” powers when everyone else can only cast 1.(quicken, word of the phoenix, and Twilight Pathways(if you have harlequins)).
Remove the Ynnari from the equation and I think the Eldar would be in line.
Though what was GW thinking when they reduced the price of the Dark Reapers!
I would have to agree with Jmac except I don’t think it is just the soulburst but this ability of Yvranne to consistently initiate a soulburst with a 5+ with her psychics. You can mitigate the soulburst ability,now that it has been nerfed, but this psychic ability allows for a dependable additional shooting phase for the strongest unit near her(10 dark reapers usually). This has to be addressed.
Also – WHO thought it was a good idea to discount Dark Reapers by 9 points from the Index! How about we add another 10 points if they are Ynnari????
I have a question about the warlock and shining spears combo. How can they double the power with the warlock if that stratagem it’s just for the *Warlock Conclave*, am I missing something?
Take home message from the LVO finals.
*Shining spears need to go back up in pts, or lower the invulnerable to 5++, since you can buff it.
*3++ invulnerable saves are broken and should only be left to special HQs or unique units.
*Reapers are too cheap and need to go up around 10-15ppm.
*Stackable -1 to hit modifiers with chapter/legion/craftworld traits is really broken and should be looked at.
*Soulburst should be removed from the game. Every other faction needs to spend CP to act twice in a turn…except Ynarri. It’s not a fun mechanic and should go.
*LVO needs time clocks to prevent ppl bleeding the time limits on their turn.
**Most important message: sportsmanship points should be introduced into LVO. I saw so many of the losing players with fantastic sportsmanship and the two finalists were absolutely cutthroat. Totally not in the spirit of wargaming. Totally understand it’s a tournament, but nobody wants to deal with nasty behaviour.
There is a reason why RTTs and GTs used to have comp/sportsmanship. To self-regulate douchebaggery and cutthroat gameplay. At some point people began to expect pure cutthroat things, and it went away. Wargaming is not an e-sport. It never will be an e-sport. Trying to treat it like one is awful.
I couldnt agree more with nearly all of your points. Time clocks could be hard on horde players though… but i guess nearly everyone has 100 plus models these days so id agree. What is 3+ invul broken on? I havent played comp recently so generally asking. I know after codex read through i though alaitoc looked the strongest of any faction in any codex. I play alpha legion and id be fine at capping at -1. Even if a unit moved with heavy weapons -1 is big. Stationary guard hitting on 6s against rangers seems silly…
I agree with the analysis, not totally with the sugested fixes.
The main problem I see with reapers is the reliable damage 3, while similar units have damage d3. Sure, a point increase can make them less appealing, but they will still do the same things unless they reach an excesive cost (which would make them useless). In a meta full of d3 reapers, there’s no place for multiwound models with no invulnerable or 2+ armour saves, and there’s a lot of that kind of models.
Shining spears are too powerfull too, mostly because the movement boosts eldars have access. A little cost increase can be good, but the main problem is in the spectacular eldar psychic powers.
Totally agreed, the -1 to hit traits shouldn’t be stackable with other modifiers. Also, I think every faction should have access to some sort of “ignore penalties” mechanic in some places. Except orks: orks should just ignore any hiting penalties, army wide. After all, they’re bs5+ and, by fluff, they don’t really aim at targets, but fill the air with bullets.
Increasing the range distance to 18″ could be another way, too (24″ for non infantry units).
I don’t think soulburst should be removed, but the psychic power should have a greater charge. At least 7+, but 8+ would probably be more fair.
I agree about timing control and some kind of sportmanship penalties for cutthroat atitudes. These games are being streamed and thay serve as an example of hight level playing.
Agreed. I cannot believe they just get a flat 3 damage for a 31 point unit. That’s just nuts.
Also, Wave Serpents are a bit too strong. 13 wounds, T7, carries 12 guys and they can reduce all damage by 1, for around 120pts. Come on, that’s mental.
I think we all saw the ugly side of competitive Warhammer. We’ve all been there, we’ve all been embarrassed at times with how we may have reacted or behaved. This is worse unfortunately because it was caught on camera for the world to see.
I can’t imagine GW will be particularly happy as they are so closely linked to this event :-/
What I am trying to understand are the list. I was reading the list and all the Yannari detachments have craftworld keywords amongst them. Do these attributes still apply in Yannari?
“Take home message from the LVO finals.
*Shining spears need to go back up in pts, or lower the invulnerable to 5++, since you can buff it.
*3++ invulnerable saves are broken and should only be left to special HQs or unique units.
*Reapers are too cheap and need to go up around 10-15ppm.
*Stackable -1 to hit modifiers with chapter/legion/craftworld traits is really broken and should be looked at.
*Soulburst should be removed from the game. Every other faction needs to spend CP to act twice in a turn…except Ynarri. It’s not a fun mechanic and should go.
*LVO needs time clocks to prevent ppl bleeding the time limits on their turn.
**Most important message: sportsmanship points should be introduced into LVO. I saw so many of the losing players with fantastic sportsmanship and the two finalists were absolutely cutthroat. Totally not in the spirit of wargaming. Totally understand it’s a tournament, but nobody wants to deal with nasty behaviour.”
THIS..plus soulburst is badly designed.
I dont know about you guys but *I am SO damned tired of perpetual eldar brokenness its not even funny any more.
Granted, GW have shown to finally start to listen and look at game balance and we will see in the next CA if eldar get some well deserved nerfs or if gw balancing team is still filled with zealot eldar fanboys that will do what they did in 7th and keep lowering points for already broken units.
Eldar reapers are at least 10-15p to cheap if they want to maintain their rules, weapons and stats with some armies simply not having any couter to them and wave serpents are to cheap with the importance they ad to the army plus eldar “chapter” traits are simply put broken when compared even to the best SM traits.
The best outcome would be to have a little if every army represented in the top 10, not 4 of the same with others never to be seen.
Also a good look at statlines and points need to be looked at for at least some of the units that are NEVER ever taken in competitive play. 8th boosted about making everything usable but all I see is words.
Heavy Bolters and similar guns will tear a unit of Shining Spears with Protect to pieces. So will anything with a multi-damage melee attack (Celestine, Autarch, Daemon Prince, BA Captain, etc.) They’re actually a pretty fragile unit in a lot of ways.
>8th boosted about making everything usable but all I see is words.
It is not possible to have every single unit in the game be perfectly balanced against each other- that is not a realistic expectation. Competitive play, by its very nature, will be dominated by the (current) most effective units and strategies as they pair off against each other; some units will always fall by the wayside, however good or bad. A much larger percentage of units are “functional,” that is to say usable, within the context of 8th edition than they have been in previous editions; the difference between, say, a Dark Reaper and a Fire Prism or a Falcon is much, much smaller than the difference between Scatter Bikes and Guardians from last edition.
That’s not to say things are perfect, but they certainly are vastly improved. We are seeing more people playing more armies with more success than ever happened in 7th edition or 6th edition.
Don tomato speaks the truth. I’d add that only units in a detachment can benifit from strats.
This type of behaviour is embarrassing. I was standing near the GW presenters and they were shocked. You can see their response too, no mention of the results on their FB page, nothing said on the AOS stream… the silence is deafening. Folks need to remember that gaming for fun farout ways the tournament in terms of dollar made. This was an opportunity to televise the game and we got the worst type of behaviour, thank god for Alex as at least they got ahero. Hope he gets a sponsorship deal.
I’d thought the lack of response was just purely because of time…. at least I hope so, I’ve loved that they’ve been more involved and am grateful for the work it has probably taken from Reece and Frankie to bring them into the fold. Just hope it’s not messed up by one act of douchebaggery. The commentary on their stream was really good as well.
So, having played against pretty close clone to the top lists during LVO, Reapers feel a little undercosted – maybe an 8-10 points increase per model feels about right.
The other thing that feels really off is the purchasing of artifacts and use of stratagems across armies – hopefully Ynarri will someday be limited to using only Ynarri strats instead of ones from all the books they draw models from.
Has anyone else noticed their ITC score going down after LVO?
I had 5 events in my score prior to LVO (which I did not attend). 3 RTT’s and 2 GT’s… now it just says 4 out of 5… any ideas??
1. Army painting level
I understand this is a hyper competitive event, however I will criticize that this years final looked poor in regards to the aesthetic level of the armies. I don’t expect a golden demon level, basic tabletop and a cohesive look is more then enough.
Unfinished models, borderline ‘grey plastic’ or a mixed bag of models borrowed from a ‘friends’ collection, each in a different scheme, different or unfinished bases… Its an insult to the players, viewers and the hobby.
Shame on you guys (players) and props to those who put the effort in to make their armies look like nice on the table.
2. Aeldari lists and Nerf talk.
I’d hold of all the ‘nerf dis’ talk until all the codex’s come out and we start getting the post codex updates.
You all crying on how a cutthroat tournament was dominated by Aeldari lists. This a FoM list. This is proved by the fact that one of the finalists compiled the list 2 weeks before the event.
I’m also pretty sure, that it takes a high competitive enviroment, ITC scenarios and skilled players to use this list efficiently and it wouldn’t be so hot if played by your average Joe or in a different scenario.
Just a few months back it was Guilliman and the gunline, today its the Eldar, tomorrow it will be the Necrons.
I like some of the ideas, some of them even sound sensible, nonetheless I’d still wait until all of the codexes roll out.
3. Aeldari lists not being fluffy
I’m going to contest this point, a Yinnari lists the incorporates other Craftworlds and Aeldari from all walks of life is as fluffy as a Yinnari list can get. If you claim otherwise you obviously don’t understand the faction fluff. In general I’m a fan of the ‘soup lists’, like guard supported by Celestine etc. can be fluffy and look good if the owner puts in some basic effort to make the force look cohesive.
I don’t think it is unreasonable that the world’s best player should be asked to know the rules of the game he is allegedly the best at. These mistakes were with the rules of their own armies (stratagems and unit special rules) and not with understanding of their opponents armies. It is a little concerning that the top players don’t even know the rules exactly. What does that mean for us common folks?
This would only happen in a tournament setting. In a casual setting they might not find interested opponents after a period of time. In a championship setting, everything is fair game. You don’t know your rules, that is your fault. No one else to blame. Do you think Tom Brady would hesitate to take advantage of people not knowing the rules, being out of position, quick snaps, etc if it helps him win? People have lost golf tournaments for breaking the rules before. Things that you would let slide in a casual golf round with your friends. Everything I saw was legal and I consider fine in a championship, but I wouldn’t want to happen at my house. They weren’t playing at my house, though….
They were playing on a grand stage, in front of over a thousand online and in front of GW themselves.
For both Frontline and the Hobby, the stage was set to impress GW and give them an incentive to support not only the US, but tournaments as a whole with more involvement.
Instead, we displayed to all of these people a complete willingness to fuck your opponent over an argument of displayed and discussed intend, and an attempt to conflate that as tactical acumen.
It’s an embarrassment not only for Tony, but for the ITC.
There’s likely a reason why GW didn’t discuss the end results of the LVO either on their stream or in a facebook post of any kind.
It appears to be unreasonable to ask that of tournament players given that two of the best players in the world made serious mistakes in the top 8 of this tournament – and those are just the mistakes that were called out. The rules are finite and these players are very familiar with them, but when the time limit is 150 minutes in total for a game you can bet that every single player is going to make a mistake at some point across his games (especially if you are getting slow-played). That would be fine if mistakes carried smaller repercussions, but when called out they typically decide the game right then and there. Both of those games were absolutely decided by their respective mistakes.
I don’t think these games were satisfying to watch and I’d bet that those players didn’t think that it was an enjoyable way to play the game – why end the game like that when you could just remind your opponent of the rules and play the game the way it is intended to be played? Sure, winning is important but allowing the competitive gameplay to degenerate like that is going to kill the competitive scene long term.
What about the AoS championships?
So for detachments the warlord doesnt have to be from the most expensive one? Deaths warlord is the changecaster, even though Drath Guard are his main. Ill keep that in mind for future list builds, did not realise that. ?
Warlords have never needed to be the most expensive unit. (At least in the last three editions)
https://twitter.com/MarcMerrill?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
Marc Merril aka Tryndamere wanted to congratulate Alex on his sportsmanship in round 8 should hit him up on twitter
I Will suport Thats cause any day
That’s something we would love to look into further.
It’s a GT but sportsmanship still makes the game. You guys could look into incorporating into the awards at the end, like NOVA does.
Props to you guys for recognizing the issue, in any case.
A little to much eldar in top ten.
Maybe time to nerf a little here and there. Reapers etc
After that semifinal match. If there is any sort of shenanigans in the final, like manipulating a tie, it’s time to seriously talk about what we are all doing here.
The problem with that type of behavior at the highest levels of play is that it reinforces that “Win At All Costs” stigma associated with tournament events. This is a Games Workshop “endorsed” event (they are sharing footage and promoted the LVO) so it is even more visible. Not sure what exactly can be down about it, but it surely turns people away from events because they don’t want to run into “that guy”, as well as a negative distraction to the event as a whole.
GW will be aware of the situation, but did not comment on it during the life-stream, though it was mentioned in the chat of the life AoS Game.
This was an ITC event with GW being there as one channel and supplier. They did not cover either match. Ultimately, ITC (Reeius etc) will have to decide what measures to take.
The next big FAQ is after Adepticon in March. By then we should know what’s happening to encourage “sportsmanship”. Personally, I’d get rid of the big prizes and just give out certificates/trophies.(The way GW does in the UK). Maybe that would make a difference?
So it’s seems today’s winners are sportsmanship and karma
What was the drama that happened?
So the top 3 of the LVO are Eldar with the exact same list. WOW. Brilliant.
Out of 500 people, 3 people with the exact same list had the best result. Think about it. Their ONLY losses were them against each other. If this doesn’t prove List>>>>>>>>>>Player Skill, I don’t know what does. Obviously, they are probably great tacticians. But if anyone says “eldar are not completelly broken BS” – they’re delusional. And I mean it to that extent. “They are a bit too good” does not cut it. Completelly. Broken.
PJfnSalt :p
Also #ReeceWasRight
2 out of 3 Ork lists had 80+ grots.
I was wrong (mostly because I only played Orks once xD and people were crying about how useless grots were everywhere)
Although he said Chaos would win and they didn’t even make top 8. #ReeceWasLeft
I don’t mean to be rude or to pick on you, rvd, but ultimately you were wrong because you had no idea what you were talking about. That is basically your defense here, that you’d played Orks only once but THE INTERNET says that grots are bad, so you can’t really be blamed for arguing with someone who has an enormous amount of both tournament experience and Ork experience.
What makes your posts frustrating to read is that you don’t appear to have a shred of self-awareness or humility, nor do you let your towering ignorance on a subject stop you from having an opinion that you feel compelled to share and state as objective fact. Again, I have no wish to pick on you or mock you, but I hope you’ll take this as an object lesson on why it’s better to listen and learn rather than argue sometimes. If you would consider applying that lesson to your posts in the Ork tactics forum on dakkadakka, you could learn a great deal.
Fennels army was build to win over that list and would have won over Tony if it wasn’t for “the move”
Oh right… We see Eldar perform well and now they’re broken. Eldar are not broken by any extent. Dark Reapers are. The rest of the Eldar are simply solid, though some things do become quite potent when played as Alaitoc… Overall I would like to see a reaper nerf, but this people are top tier players, I don’t think them winning proves Eldar are broken. Besides, a lot of competitive players prefer highly mobile and hard hitting armies, so I’ve always thought Eldar fit there.
This right here… Eldar are fine, however reapers have several issues. …and once you throw in Ynarri hijinx it gets worse. My round 3 was dark reaper spam and it was the only game I hated playing the entire tournament.
Eldar are fine. 5 out of top 8, top 3 all the exact same eldar list, 2nd place guy got the list 2 weeks ago and didn’t even know how the stratagems worked.
Eldar are fine.
Eldar are not performing “well”. 5 out of 8 is not “well”. 4 out of those 5 having identical lists is not “well”. Top 3 being the exact same eldar list is, again, not “well”
They’re broken. Plain and simple. You don’t go undefeated with 500 players and have the same list go undefeated until it faces the exact same list, so someone has to lose. They players are good. Obviously. However I think any respectable player: Sam, Brandon, Tyler, Paul would’ve done better if they had the same list. If that were to happen, I don’t see 8 out 8 being the same list that unlikelly… Which is bad.
Eldar at the moment and especially ynnarri are one army that awards perfect play and crucifies you if you get it wrong. I’m not surprised that alot of the best players ( and they are great players without question) end up with similar lists optimised.
These are not net lists or win buttons. If you think they are … Try them and see.
If one army played to perfection is a better army than the others – that’s still bad for the game.
And did you see Tony? He got the list 2 weeks before the LVO. He didn’t even know how the stratagems even worked, lol.
These were exact copies. Nanavati talks about it in the interviews how Grippando and Brad Chester straight up copied his list for this event. Not sure how they got it but that has to be really weird for Nick.
Players copy each others lists all the time and have been since net lists dropped. The BCP app, especially if you subscribe gives you access to lists from major GTs its not a big deal to copy someones list, the differenece is player experience with their list.
So from my view the Eldar player that won used his the kost effective in addition to luck. I feel like ever since players have had access to viewing top lists, it has made us all more competitive overall.
The -1 to hit mechanic is a bit too strong and Aliatoc have the strongest version of it with extra stackable modifiers to really double down.
Then Dark Reapers have the answer to it so it can’t even be countered well by other codexes that have that -1 to hit option.
Personally I’d say Reapers need a bit of a points adjustment and the Aliatoc trait should never stack with other modifiers. Then wait a while to see if it needs any more adjustment in the FAQ drop 6 months on.
I agree. The -1 to hit mechanic is bad for the game. When only one army is played competitivly it means there is an obvious imbalance. All the armies with a -1 mechanic are just too good to pass up, to the point that it’s just silly to play anything else.
I think the rule just needs tweaking though, not eliminating. Maybe change it to work outside 18 to 24 inches, so that it still has some utility but is not just automatic blanket protection.
Can you feel all that balance? Im starting to feel dizzy from sooo much balance.
Wait, were you always “angry” panda? I’m confused now 😀
I used to be Chill Panda before I knew GW 🙂
When I am playing chaos I mostly feel like I get punished by the psyker spam *cough wheres my malefics cough* and Dark Reapers. Wave Runners are a bit tougher than I like too. Everything else I am fine with.
What Eldar unit makes you angry?
I feel most of it still is, but Dark Reapers are clearly too much of a no-brainer.
Then again, it could just be a lack of imagination on the part of the top players. Hard to say when you’re aren’t in their position.
That’s only true if you assume player skill is independent of list selection.
You’d have to be pretty stupid to make that assumption.
By player skill I meant in-game decisions. Starting from when you hit the table. Pre-planed strategy of when to use what aside.
Player skill involves: movement, picking targets, consolidating, using situational stratagems, etc
#dontbeaTony
2 games on the main WHtv stream with people being complete dicks, embarrasig for GW having this represent their game
#dontbeatony
What an embarasment for GW, FLG and the 40k community as a whole for those two games on stream
You call it embarasment, I call it juicy drama.
I love it. More trash talk. Throw a punch next time.
Made the games that much more interesting.
Good work FLG. I caught what I could over the weekend, and got to see almost all of the semi-final and final games. Dave and Dave were spectacular commentators. Do they have a podcast or something? They just sounded like seasoned vets, but for the life of me, I can’t find any information on who they are.
Wish I could have made it. But my wife is due to give birth any day now. Hopefully I won’t be able to watch next years stream, on account of being at the LVO!
Tony may have won but his behaviour was appalling. Not only was he one of the most unsporting players I’ve seen on stream, he had unpainted and unbased models, and was obviously slow playing Alex towards the end. I’m really surprised and actually a bit disappointed the flg guys let him get away with that
It is going to make great YouTube clips for every time anyone wants to make a point against competetive play, 40k or both.
Yea it’s a real shame. I’m already hearing friends and club players saying “well if that’s what the LVO is like, I won’t bother going next year”.
Reece/Frankie, I don’t envy you guys as you run phenomenal events, but you’ve got a bit of a PR crisis at the moment that could easily spiral out of control if you don’t address this soon
Win a GT and be in team America are on my bucket list. Right now, the person id have to become to do this is not someone id like to be.
I hope this kind of stuff is not done when the United States is being represented.
Team America members do not condone this type of play or behavior. There were a lot of current and former team members in attendance who were appalled by these actions and also spoke to Tony afterwards.
Didn’t they specifically say you had to have 3 colors minimum + basing? If he was using unpainted or unbased models how did he even get to use them? They made this whole big deal about a PSA from the LVO organizers blah blah blah.
i don’t think his models were unpainted or unbased. I think i read on the stream that it was pastel colors which were washed out on camera.
People are discussing drama and somesuch. Links to it? To the videos?
tldr:
Tony vs Alex. Alex deepstrikes stuff before moving. Tony says you can’t move anything anymore. Alex says “you’ve got to be kidding me. Good game” (however later continues to play)
Tony vs Nick. Tony says he charges after advancing. Nick says you have to you use stratagem when you advance, not when you charge.
Tony “but that’s different from what alex did he…” and yeah. Karma.
I don’t know about people being mad about it. It’s great.
I don’t know man I think I agree on the side or rules lawyer. It can seriously mess with the game if you let an error like that play out like that and not catch it, perhaps applying aura’s to movement that would not have been there to benefit normally.
However if I was the opponent and noticed the honest mistake in time I would be all “Woah a sec dude you didn’t move your other guys yet?” instead of being like “Hahahaha you F’d up I win”.
Tony opened himself up to get beat on any rules mistake he made by his behavior in the vs Alex game, and Nick pounced on it. If Tony had just accepted fair play then there’d be an argument for him but he didn’t.
I agree!
It’s also that IIRC Tony and Alex agreed to play intent, and because Tony was slow playing Alex was rushing to get his turn done. So, because they agreed on intent and he was rushing, it should have been okay go back or whatnot, but Tony was being a dick.
Honestly, as someone on the fence about competitive play anyways (locally, not GT, but even then the attitude/mindset of competitive play I feel is a 180 from what 40k should be), things like this doesn’t make me want to touch it with a 20 foot pole. I’ll stick to my “scrub” narrative play with people who aren’t trying to slow play or glean any advantage they can to win.
I was watching it all live and it was horrible to see it unfold.
I tried to clip it for you.
https://clips.twitch.tv/JollyFragileCheetahPeteZarollTie
There is some other context to consider:
(1) pregame discussion regarding playing by intent
https://clips.twitch.tv/DoubtfulRespectfulOpossumImGlitch
(2) extreme slow play on the part of Tony that resulted in the implementation of a chess clock type system for the final match
Also contrast it to the clip where Tony had the tables reversed
https://clips.twitch.tv/SuaveGleamingSpiderWOOP
The video playback of Las Vegas Day 3 – Setting up
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/223317017
The 4:58 mark is right before the rules lawyering occurred.
For context please review a clip from earlier in the game when intent was being discussed
https://clips.twitch.tv/DoubtfulRespectfulOpossumImGlitch
I was in and out of the room doing some hobby so I missed the initial conversation. No wonder the chat was so heated about what happened – it was pretty much entrapment.
Sad sight to see.
Can I put in a request to the FLG podcasters and the public community in general – please do *not* get him onto your podcasts/twitch/blog to make his excuses. Nobody needs it, we can all see what he was up to and he knows it too. No rules were broken other than social rules so we can only really have social consequences; can we just all pretend he does not exist for a while please.
Massive respect for Alex. I think 99% of players in that position would have said a few choice words and gone to have some fun elsewhere in Vegas.
Thank you for the clip.
Can anyone explain why Nick’s list from LOV 18 is not illegal – is he taking spirit stone of anathlan/warlord trait on his spirit seer while using Ynnari and having yvrainne as his warlord?
I can’t see any changes in the Xenos FAQ that removes the requirement that Yvraine/Yncarne/Autarch one be your warlord?
You can use the Relic Stratagem to give one to a model even when you don’t have access to the free one. He had Eldar Strats so he could use it to give to the Spiritseer.
The gentlemanly thing to do would have been to say “hold up, have you finished your movement phase?”. Instead Tony will spend the better part of 2018 with a reputation for being a really poor sport, and exactly the sort of player that puts people off going to tournaments.
He also had unpainted models
+1
It looked like he literally just spray painted some of his minis.
Also, in the game against Alex he was using empty bases to represent minis that supposedly broke. Shouldn’t have been allowed to use them imo. Looked absolutely terrible on the stream.
Tony literally asked for it. His petulant response to it as well was particularly amusing as it showed that he only cares about it when it’s in his favour. He would have redeemed himself marginally if he’d said ‘you’re correct, that’s the way I like to play the game’ and moved on. To say ‘that was different’ is such a classic selfish response. That said it’s still only a game and if he can grow up and move on and maybe learn a lesson from it then we should drop it as a community as well. The loss of the money will hit hard, no need to kick him while he’s down.
I dunno. Holding people accountable for shitty behavior is sort of a necessity to counter it. If he can grow out of it, good for him. But otherwise its just well earned bad reputation if it sticks.
Totally agree. It is up to us as a community to condemn behaviour like that and single out the shady individuals displaying it.
Otherwise the behaviour will continue and our standards for fair play and sportmanship will go down the toilet.
I’ll admit we should spend as much time praising Alex as we do condemning Tony
Tonys behavior in the semi was awful sportmanslike. His slowplay in the same match is on the border of cheating. He should have been thrown out.
To bad he faced Alex who are such a calm gentleman. Most peopled would have told Tony to hurry up and got a judge over long before.
With everyone rightly complaining about Tony’s awful conduct, it is worth pointing out that Alex was an absolute gent. In the face of such petulance, it is easy to lose your cool and sink to the same level, but he didn’t and should be applauded for it.
Echo what others have suggested – have a prize for most sporting
I would have told Tony I was not deploying the deep strikers. I was just pre measuring to make sure there was enough room before I moved my army and was just using the deep strike models as counters to mark off the area so I didn’t move there and block the deep strike.
Heat of the moment and all that though. It’s so rare to run into the brick wall of such rampant douchebaggery that it sorta knocks you for six.
True about heat of the moment. I thought of my response an hour later
Wow never thought someone not following the rules and getting called on it would be such a huge deal. As for the Eldar shaming, get in line, just another edition where good players win games with good lists, even if its the same list. Eldar have been out for months! No one was crying about OP Eldar lists. Ynnari got nerfed and their still good!!
Tony had all his stuff painted to standard, his Eldar rangers broke off the bases, which for tourney players is a constant battle as models get damaged… he met all the rules for painting and basing.
I am guessing you are an Eldar player?
Ah yes, 5 out of top 8 in a 500 tourny, top 3 exact same list and 2nd place is a guy who got the list TWO WEEKS before LVO and didn’t even know how his damn stratagems worked (and STILL made it to 2nd place???) Balanced eldar lol
I respect your opinion but I personally disagree. Minor damage, such as an arm or weapon breaking off is one thing, and perfectly excusable, but to play with empty bases representing minis is confusing, both to an opponent and spectators.
Standards are important in all aspects of the hobby, from sportsmanship to list writing, from modelling to painting. Illegal lists suffer model removal or disqualification, which is a high but worthy standard. The three-colour minimum evolving to tournament standard with painted bases and easily identifiable faction markings is another progressive standard.
I agree that it’s rough when models break accidentally, but it’s equally rough when you make an honest mistake in your list. With the latter you have to face consequences.
If there is no standard, where do you draw the line? Can someone field an entire 2000 point army with empty bases and a bunch of excuses?
Well, aren’t you just made to play each other then.
No one is claiming that Tony cheated or broke any rules. He just behaved like a child and will now have a proverbial black mark against his name when he attends future tournaments
Just watched the replay. Alex was measuring out 9″ and putting dice to mark it. Tony kept grabbing the dice and rolling them and moving them.
The thing that got me was that Tony offered to let Alex go back and play it out for fun if Alex gave him the win first.
This is gonna look great. Here’s the guy you need to be and this is the list you need to play to win. Once everyone plays that exact army we got balance. No wonder they said it is the most balanced edition ever.
I LoL’d for a few minutes with this comment. I am not too worried though, Dark Reapers will get a nerf from this. I hope in the form of an FAQ like Chaos got, but we will see.
IMO, Dark Reapers are only half the problem. It’s the mechanic that gives you extra phases that is what makes this list so overpowering. The only other army that can do this in abundance is Sisters, and the only reason we don’t see then more prevalently is because their production line is extinct. This mechanic is too strong for only a couple armies to have.
*I realize other armies have move/shoot/fight out of phase, but it generally requires a stratagem. Whereas Ynnari does it damn near 3 times a turn and without sounding a command point.
After watching the matches, I believe it isn’t the dark reapers or even the Soulburst itself that is the root problem, it is the fact that Yvraine can cast a Psychic ability that allows for an extra shooting phase or movement on a 5+. It is extremely powerful and gives the Dark Reapers 2 rounds of shooting after they land. It also gives the Ynnari the ability to potentially cast 3 “move” powers when everyone else can only cast 1.(quicken, word of the phoenix, and Twilight Pathways(if you have harlequins)).
Remove the Ynnari from the equation and I think the Eldar would be in line.
Though what was GW thinking when they reduced the price of the Dark Reapers!
I would have to agree with Jmac except I don’t think it is just the soulburst but this ability of Yvranne to consistently initiate a soulburst with a 5+ with her psychics. You can mitigate the soulburst ability,now that it has been nerfed, but this psychic ability allows for a dependable additional shooting phase for the strongest unit near her(10 dark reapers usually). This has to be addressed.
Also – WHO thought it was a good idea to discount Dark Reapers by 9 points from the Index! How about we add another 10 points if they are Ynnari????
I have a question about the warlock and shining spears combo. How can they double the power with the warlock if that stratagem it’s just for the *Warlock Conclave*, am I missing something?
Take home message from the LVO finals.
*Shining spears need to go back up in pts, or lower the invulnerable to 5++, since you can buff it.
*3++ invulnerable saves are broken and should only be left to special HQs or unique units.
*Reapers are too cheap and need to go up around 10-15ppm.
*Stackable -1 to hit modifiers with chapter/legion/craftworld traits is really broken and should be looked at.
*Soulburst should be removed from the game. Every other faction needs to spend CP to act twice in a turn…except Ynarri. It’s not a fun mechanic and should go.
*LVO needs time clocks to prevent ppl bleeding the time limits on their turn.
**Most important message: sportsmanship points should be introduced into LVO. I saw so many of the losing players with fantastic sportsmanship and the two finalists were absolutely cutthroat. Totally not in the spirit of wargaming. Totally understand it’s a tournament, but nobody wants to deal with nasty behaviour.
There is a reason why RTTs and GTs used to have comp/sportsmanship. To self-regulate douchebaggery and cutthroat gameplay. At some point people began to expect pure cutthroat things, and it went away. Wargaming is not an e-sport. It never will be an e-sport. Trying to treat it like one is awful.
I couldnt agree more with nearly all of your points. Time clocks could be hard on horde players though… but i guess nearly everyone has 100 plus models these days so id agree. What is 3+ invul broken on? I havent played comp recently so generally asking. I know after codex read through i though alaitoc looked the strongest of any faction in any codex. I play alpha legion and id be fine at capping at -1. Even if a unit moved with heavy weapons -1 is big. Stationary guard hitting on 6s against rangers seems silly…
Its hard to argue that the -1 to hit traits dont outperform other faction traits in the codices.
A good fix could be to increase the range distance to which they apply to 18″ or 24″ for vehicles and monsters.
I agree with the analysis, not totally with the sugested fixes.
The main problem I see with reapers is the reliable damage 3, while similar units have damage d3. Sure, a point increase can make them less appealing, but they will still do the same things unless they reach an excesive cost (which would make them useless). In a meta full of d3 reapers, there’s no place for multiwound models with no invulnerable or 2+ armour saves, and there’s a lot of that kind of models.
Shining spears are too powerfull too, mostly because the movement boosts eldars have access. A little cost increase can be good, but the main problem is in the spectacular eldar psychic powers.
Totally agreed, the -1 to hit traits shouldn’t be stackable with other modifiers. Also, I think every faction should have access to some sort of “ignore penalties” mechanic in some places. Except orks: orks should just ignore any hiting penalties, army wide. After all, they’re bs5+ and, by fluff, they don’t really aim at targets, but fill the air with bullets.
Increasing the range distance to 18″ could be another way, too (24″ for non infantry units).
I don’t think soulburst should be removed, but the psychic power should have a greater charge. At least 7+, but 8+ would probably be more fair.
I agree about timing control and some kind of sportmanship penalties for cutthroat atitudes. These games are being streamed and thay serve as an example of hight level playing.
So we back to Eldar breaking the game yet again or not?
Looks that way from a cursory evaluation
Fortunately this is 8th edition, where everything gets nerfed eventually. Dark Reapers are going to get tanked in March.
Agreed. I cannot believe they just get a flat 3 damage for a 31 point unit. That’s just nuts.
Also, Wave Serpents are a bit too strong. 13 wounds, T7, carries 12 guys and they can reduce all damage by 1, for around 120pts. Come on, that’s mental.
I think we all saw the ugly side of competitive Warhammer. We’ve all been there, we’ve all been embarrassed at times with how we may have reacted or behaved. This is worse unfortunately because it was caught on camera for the world to see.
I can’t imagine GW will be particularly happy as they are so closely linked to this event :-/
What I am trying to understand are the list. I was reading the list and all the Yannari detachments have craftworld keywords amongst them. Do these attributes still apply in Yannari?
“Take home message from the LVO finals.
*Shining spears need to go back up in pts, or lower the invulnerable to 5++, since you can buff it.
*3++ invulnerable saves are broken and should only be left to special HQs or unique units.
*Reapers are too cheap and need to go up around 10-15ppm.
*Stackable -1 to hit modifiers with chapter/legion/craftworld traits is really broken and should be looked at.
*Soulburst should be removed from the game. Every other faction needs to spend CP to act twice in a turn…except Ynarri. It’s not a fun mechanic and should go.
*LVO needs time clocks to prevent ppl bleeding the time limits on their turn.
**Most important message: sportsmanship points should be introduced into LVO. I saw so many of the losing players with fantastic sportsmanship and the two finalists were absolutely cutthroat. Totally not in the spirit of wargaming. Totally understand it’s a tournament, but nobody wants to deal with nasty behaviour.”
THIS..plus soulburst is badly designed.
I dont know about you guys but *I am SO damned tired of perpetual eldar brokenness its not even funny any more.
Granted, GW have shown to finally start to listen and look at game balance and we will see in the next CA if eldar get some well deserved nerfs or if gw balancing team is still filled with zealot eldar fanboys that will do what they did in 7th and keep lowering points for already broken units.
Eldar reapers are at least 10-15p to cheap if they want to maintain their rules, weapons and stats with some armies simply not having any couter to them and wave serpents are to cheap with the importance they ad to the army plus eldar “chapter” traits are simply put broken when compared even to the best SM traits.
The best outcome would be to have a little if every army represented in the top 10, not 4 of the same with others never to be seen.
Also a good look at statlines and points need to be looked at for at least some of the units that are NEVER ever taken in competitive play. 8th boosted about making everything usable but all I see is words.
>3++ invulnerable saves are broken
Heavy Bolters and similar guns will tear a unit of Shining Spears with Protect to pieces. So will anything with a multi-damage melee attack (Celestine, Autarch, Daemon Prince, BA Captain, etc.) They’re actually a pretty fragile unit in a lot of ways.
>8th boosted about making everything usable but all I see is words.
It is not possible to have every single unit in the game be perfectly balanced against each other- that is not a realistic expectation. Competitive play, by its very nature, will be dominated by the (current) most effective units and strategies as they pair off against each other; some units will always fall by the wayside, however good or bad. A much larger percentage of units are “functional,” that is to say usable, within the context of 8th edition than they have been in previous editions; the difference between, say, a Dark Reaper and a Fire Prism or a Falcon is much, much smaller than the difference between Scatter Bikes and Guardians from last edition.
That’s not to say things are perfect, but they certainly are vastly improved. We are seeing more people playing more armies with more success than ever happened in 7th edition or 6th edition.
Don tomato speaks the truth. I’d add that only units in a detachment can benifit from strats.
This type of behaviour is embarrassing. I was standing near the GW presenters and they were shocked. You can see their response too, no mention of the results on their FB page, nothing said on the AOS stream… the silence is deafening. Folks need to remember that gaming for fun farout ways the tournament in terms of dollar made. This was an opportunity to televise the game and we got the worst type of behaviour, thank god for Alex as at least they got ahero. Hope he gets a sponsorship deal.
I’d thought the lack of response was just purely because of time…. at least I hope so, I’ve loved that they’ve been more involved and am grateful for the work it has probably taken from Reece and Frankie to bring them into the fold. Just hope it’s not messed up by one act of douchebaggery. The commentary on their stream was really good as well.
So, having played against pretty close clone to the top lists during LVO, Reapers feel a little undercosted – maybe an 8-10 points increase per model feels about right.
The other thing that feels really off is the purchasing of artifacts and use of stratagems across armies – hopefully Ynarri will someday be limited to using only Ynarri strats instead of ones from all the books they draw models from.
Has anyone else noticed their ITC score going down after LVO?
I had 5 events in my score prior to LVO (which I did not attend). 3 RTT’s and 2 GT’s… now it just says 4 out of 5… any ideas??
Few points I’d like to throw in,
1. Army painting level
I understand this is a hyper competitive event, however I will criticize that this years final looked poor in regards to the aesthetic level of the armies. I don’t expect a golden demon level, basic tabletop and a cohesive look is more then enough.
Unfinished models, borderline ‘grey plastic’ or a mixed bag of models borrowed from a ‘friends’ collection, each in a different scheme, different or unfinished bases… Its an insult to the players, viewers and the hobby.
Shame on you guys (players) and props to those who put the effort in to make their armies look like nice on the table.
2. Aeldari lists and Nerf talk.
I’d hold of all the ‘nerf dis’ talk until all the codex’s come out and we start getting the post codex updates.
You all crying on how a cutthroat tournament was dominated by Aeldari lists. This a FoM list. This is proved by the fact that one of the finalists compiled the list 2 weeks before the event.
I’m also pretty sure, that it takes a high competitive enviroment, ITC scenarios and skilled players to use this list efficiently and it wouldn’t be so hot if played by your average Joe or in a different scenario.
Just a few months back it was Guilliman and the gunline, today its the Eldar, tomorrow it will be the Necrons.
I like some of the ideas, some of them even sound sensible, nonetheless I’d still wait until all of the codexes roll out.
3. Aeldari lists not being fluffy
I’m going to contest this point, a Yinnari lists the incorporates other Craftworlds and Aeldari from all walks of life is as fluffy as a Yinnari list can get. If you claim otherwise you obviously don’t understand the faction fluff. In general I’m a fan of the ‘soup lists’, like guard supported by Celestine etc. can be fluffy and look good if the owner puts in some basic effort to make the force look cohesive.
I don’t think it is unreasonable that the world’s best player should be asked to know the rules of the game he is allegedly the best at. These mistakes were with the rules of their own armies (stratagems and unit special rules) and not with understanding of their opponents armies. It is a little concerning that the top players don’t even know the rules exactly. What does that mean for us common folks?
This would only happen in a tournament setting. In a casual setting they might not find interested opponents after a period of time. In a championship setting, everything is fair game. You don’t know your rules, that is your fault. No one else to blame. Do you think Tom Brady would hesitate to take advantage of people not knowing the rules, being out of position, quick snaps, etc if it helps him win? People have lost golf tournaments for breaking the rules before. Things that you would let slide in a casual golf round with your friends. Everything I saw was legal and I consider fine in a championship, but I wouldn’t want to happen at my house. They weren’t playing at my house, though….
They were playing on a grand stage, in front of over a thousand online and in front of GW themselves.
For both Frontline and the Hobby, the stage was set to impress GW and give them an incentive to support not only the US, but tournaments as a whole with more involvement.
Instead, we displayed to all of these people a complete willingness to fuck your opponent over an argument of displayed and discussed intend, and an attempt to conflate that as tactical acumen.
It’s an embarrassment not only for Tony, but for the ITC.
There’s likely a reason why GW didn’t discuss the end results of the LVO either on their stream or in a facebook post of any kind.
And don’t forget that competitive play was pure evil in their view for the last 20 years. It won’t take much for them to go back to that attitude.
It appears to be unreasonable to ask that of tournament players given that two of the best players in the world made serious mistakes in the top 8 of this tournament – and those are just the mistakes that were called out. The rules are finite and these players are very familiar with them, but when the time limit is 150 minutes in total for a game you can bet that every single player is going to make a mistake at some point across his games (especially if you are getting slow-played). That would be fine if mistakes carried smaller repercussions, but when called out they typically decide the game right then and there. Both of those games were absolutely decided by their respective mistakes.
I don’t think these games were satisfying to watch and I’d bet that those players didn’t think that it was an enjoyable way to play the game – why end the game like that when you could just remind your opponent of the rules and play the game the way it is intended to be played? Sure, winning is important but allowing the competitive gameplay to degenerate like that is going to kill the competitive scene long term.