Well, GW got us the Chaos FAQs we were all waiting on!
Death Guard FAQ
Chaos Space Marines FAQ
Chaos Daemons FAQ
And yes, these are in play for the LVO which is a tight timeline but we’re thankful to GW for pushing these out fast for everyone’s benefit and clarity. And as the Daemon Dex has only been out for a week and change, it hopefully is close enough to avoid having disrupted too many people too much. But in order to use all the fun new stuff for Daemons, we had to get it in in a short window of time.
And remember, Frontline Gaming sells gaming products at a discount, every day in their webcart!
LOL, loving all this salt from folks on the other sites and Facebook that thought it was totally cool to pop a strategum to deep strike Magnus/Mortarion or a Lord of Skulls.
Yeah, lol. That was very much OTT and not intended to function that way. However, all good, it was fixed very quickly.
Sad to see Possessed get removed but for consistency they had to go too.
Yeah, agree.
Possed never benefited because they didn’t have the daemon faction keyword
They do in the Death Guard Dex.
Yeah, but they do have daemon keyword so count towards tally for Epidemius. Alpha legion replace berserkers with possesed, add some oblits, and then make the other detachements nurgle daemons
I mean, it’s hard to say it’s over the top to deep strike a daemon primarch when Guard can do the same thing with a Shadowsword.
I do think making chaos daemons stuff work specifically for codex chaos daemons was the right decision but let’s not pretend there wasn’t any precedent for this.
It’s not just deep-striking, that is one part of it. It’s that plus everything else you can layer on to it. And while our interpretations of what is or is not OTT vary, most importantly, it is a rules interaction that was not meant to work that way, thus the FAQ to change it.
From experience though (and this is just my perspective, YMMV) having Morty drop down, go 3++, warp time into your lines then start mortal wound pulsing and auto-charging with no counter move was not in any way a positive for the game. An outflanking Shadowsword is a bit silly, I agree, but they’re not the same thing at all, IMO.
Yeah, for one a Shadowsword doesn’t really benefit from being close to the enemy- Mortarion, on the other hand, very much does. And “outflank” is much less powerful than simply being able to place a unit anywhere on the board that is outside of 9″, since you have dozens of times more space to put them in.
To everyone complaining: you were warned. You were warned often, and in multiple places. 😀
There is a need for… Subtlety and Grace when you’re in a circle that grants you foresight, in my opinion.
One should be careful with how they wield that privilege so it doesn’t come off as arrogance. 😉
Even those of us without foreknowledge knew something like this was coming. GW has made it pretty clear that they’re going to be cleaning up mistakes and loopholes like these. Anyone who hasn’t figured that out yet has only themself to blame.
Sometime you need to not be subtle because if this was a full blindside to people looking to abuse this rule, there would be a lot more blowback. But you can go listen to Signals, Chapter Tactics, TFG, and even on iNcontrol’s stream, all those are places where this was heavily hinted at. Starting from the moment that Denizens was previewed
Oh, by all means warn people. That’s totally fine. I’m just saying there’s a difference between “haha warned you” and “were trying to help”
All the Daemon WL traits and Psychic powers still work on every kind of daemon
Brutal.
Did GW change the Plague Drones faction keyword in the Death Guard codex just to screw with us? I thought I understood the logic of changing all the CSM units to clearly indicate that they are not “Daemon” faction units but the Plague Drones ARE Daemons and in the Daemons codex. Now do we have 2 different data slates for this unit to deal with (not unlike the Daemon princes) or did someone at GW just screw up?
They changed the foetid bloat drone, the one that comes in the Dark Imperium box and has three propellers, not the plague drones, which are three giant flies with plaguebeares riding them.
From the DG FAQ, “Page 85 – Plague Drones
Remove ‘Daemon’ from the Faction keywords line
Add ‘Daemon’ to the keywords line”, so yes they did change the DG plague drones.
And yet they left plaguebearers, beasts, and nurgling alone. I think they rushed the FAQ to beat the LVO deadline and got mixed up on the drone type in the FAQ.
Plague drones get no benefit from being in a death guard army, and deprive them of all their death guard faction benefits. Who was ever going to bring them in a DG list anyways? Better to summon them or ally a daemon list. A chaos soup list (since you can’t be DG with daemons in your force org) can still take the daemon datasheet that still has the daemon faction…..
Why single out plague drones, and not include the other daemon units if there is the risk for abuse? Seems like a mistake for sure.
My mistake, it seem so obvious to me it would be the foetid bloat drone I didn’t even read… That makes no sense at all, probably a mistake.
So how do strats. work across detachments now? We have the DG FAQ which lets us use them for any unit if the keyword is there, We have the designers commentary that says faction keywords are only used during army construction. Now we have the daemon FAQ that limits strats to only the faction keyword.
Use the latest update.
Sadly, the designer’s commentary is now just an overview of what was intended. Blame the cheats who’ve looked to take advantage of every little crack they can find.
They published the Daemon FAQ today and updated the deathguard FAQ today as well, leaving in the Q and A about the stratagems. So technically they are both the most recent, so this answer does not work.
Honesty I think the answer is that the faction keyword thing only applies to the Daemon Codex, which is odd to say the least, but they must feel it is warranted to make this a special rule only for Daemons.
Wow, Be’lakor sucks even more than he did already. Guess GW really doesn’t like Undivided, huh?
I was not deep striking Mortarion, but was planning to boost his invulnerable instead. This means I cannot do that correct?
Correct. At least not with the Daemon strats.
I think this was a fair call. Dark Angels stratagems don’t work on Ultramarines for example and they are closer in similarity to each other, as far as factions go, than Daemons and CSM. To be honest, I was afraid they’d go overboard with the nerf and limit certain power levels instead, forcing Great Unclean Ones to footslog it instead of being able to deep strike. GW FAQ’s being sensible is a new thing and I hope they keep it that way. I especially hope that mono daemon heralds can still buff the similarly aligned CSM demons, because there is no reason that daemons shouldn’t inspire their CSM ilk.
Only daemon stratagem I wish they’d fix is the daemon incursion one, because right now it’s effects are very unfluffy. Say I have a mix of Gray Knights and Imperial Guard and I face a Great Unclean One. By all rights I should challenge it with my Gray Knights, but with this stratagem in effect, the last wound better not come from them, but from the Imperial Guard instead or I’ll face the Great Unclean One again. Best let the REAL men of Astra Militarum handle the big guys while Gray Knights go and punch some nurglings.
It’d be best if this stratagem was in effect when opposing army merely has any Gray Knights units. I don’t know, if it’d be too overpowering, but at least it wouldn’t force us in to strange situations in which Gray Knights are worse than their allies against Greater Daemons.
The Daemonic Incursion strategum is a total head scratcher, real talk.
It seems sort of fluffy (like Endless Swarm for Tyranids) but then EXPLICITLY states it works in Matched Play (Endless Swarm does not, unless paid for with Reinforcement Points. GK’s are supposed to be THE hard counter to daemons and this definitely flips that on its head.
GW is trying to convert all GKs to custodes j/k. But yeah, GW is showing the least love for GK with that rule. Daemons are the one army GK are supposed be good against #ouch
GK are still really, really brutal against Daemons, even with that stratagem. Three wounds per cast of Smite, especially in combination with massed Storm Bolters to clear out chaff, will cause massive damage to most all Daemon lists.
Competitive GK players will have plenty of non-GK tools (e.g. Celestine, Guard, etc) to deal those last few wounds, so it’s not as big an issue there.
No doubt. But it still doesn’t make any sense at all and I don’t think the rule is working as intended, since it literally makes Gray Knights worse than their allies against the most powerful of daemon units.
It also forces Gray Knights to play a weird avoidance game. That’s actually even worse on narrative games. It makes them seem like they are afraid of daemons or something.
I just hope they’d remove the ‘destroyed by a GRAY KNIGHT’ clause and replace it with something more sensible. Like for example ‘if the opponent has any GRAY KNIGHTS units’
30x 3++ horrors with 6+ “change no pain” say hello
SM Librarian casts Null Zone and moves in, GK fire Stormbolters to kill 27 of the squad, morale finishes the job.
You say hello, the GK say goodbye.
Maybe if the strategum didn’t work for units killed by Rites of Banishment..
This FAQ only affects stratagems? What about all the auras, psypowers, etc
Why do those affect everyone but stratagems don’t? Heck, if you use a stratagem on a Faction Daemon, which creates an aura – you can affect the non-faction deamons… This is so convoluted…
Not really, stratagems can be used on units with the daemon faction keyword, rest uses either, not exactly tricky.
Sorry that comes across way arseyer than I intended 😛
Oh no, people sounding arsey in comments. Well I never! /s
Anyway, I get it. But it’s really arbitrary. Half of the things can be used, half can’t and there isn’t a written rule. It’s just a question “can I use these?” “No”. “Oh ok, but those are still cool right? k thx”
All other faction based stratagems work off of faction keywords, so it’s completely consistent with how the game works otherwise. I think the issue is more that with hindsight the daemon non-faction keyword probably should have been something different to avoid confusion (like Maelific or something)
When you think about it, it mostly makes sense in some way. Possessed and Obliterators are quite a different sort of daemon than say, a pink horror. Corporeal forms and such.
There is no difference between faction keywords and keywords once you are done with army building per the designers commentary. So if you are not a Daemon codex player all the strats work if the unit has the keyword (not just the faction keyword) unless specified in the strat.
However if you read the FAQ, it says you cannot do that..
Since there seems to be some confusion I am posting the pertinent parts of the designers commentary, the DG FAQ and the Daemon FAQ.
Desingers Commnetary, Q: What is the difference between a keyword and a Faction keyword?
A: The only real difference is that Faction keywords are used when building an army; when Battle-forging an army, for instance, you will often only be able to include units in the same detachment if they share the same Faction keyword. Also, if you are playing a matched play game, you will need to have an Army Faction – this is a Faction keyword that is shared by all of the units in your entire army (with the exception of those that are Unaligned). Once the battle has begun, there is no functional difference between a keyword and a Faction keyword. For example, when creating a Battle-forged army for matched play, I take two Patrol Detachments;
the first contains only units with the Heretic Astartes Faction keyword, and the second contains only units with the Daemon Faction keyword. My Army Faction is ‘Chaos’ because this is a Faction keyword every unit in the entire army shares. Once the battle has begun, the distinction between keywords and Faction keywords no
longer has any effect – both are used to interact with abilities identically. Imagine, then, that the Heretic Astartes Detachment contains a unit of Possessed (which does not have the Daemon Faction keyword, but does have the Daemon keyword), and I choose for them to replace their keyword with Khorne. If the Daemon Detachment contained a Herald of Khorne, his ability to ‘add 1 to the Strength characteristic of all Khorne Daemons’ would also apply to the unit of Possessed, as they have both the Khorne and Daemon keywords.”
Death Guard FAQ, “Q: Is it possible to use a Stratagem from Codex: Chaos Space Marines to target a unit from Codex: Death Guard? For example, can I use the Tide of Traitors Stratagem on a unit of Cultists from a Death Guard Detachment if I have an Alpha Legion Detachment and a Death Guard Detachment in a single Battle-forged army?
A: Yes – if you have access to a Stratagem because you have an appropriate Detachment, it can be used on
any permitted target: they do not need to be from that Detachment. In your example, the Alpha Legion Detachment gives access to the Chaos Space Marine Stratagems, and Tide of Traitors can be used on any
Chaos Cultists – this would include any Chaos Cultists
from the Death Guard Detachment.”
Daemon FAQ, “Q: When a Stratagem from Codex: C haos Daemons uses the Daemon keyword, can it be used to affect any unit with the Daemon keyword, or only units with the Daemon Faction keyword?
A: These Stratagems can only affect units with the Daemon Faction keyword.”
So basically GW has carved out a special niche for stratagems from the Daemon Codex so they only use faction keywords. It does not seem to apply to other faction stratagems nor does it apply to any other ability except stratagems from the Daemon codex.
Well there was precedence for this already with Tyranids and GSC. Its even more confusing though because GSC actually have the Tyranids faction keyword, but are still not allowed to use Tyranid stratagems due to an errata
The only thing consistent with the factions which share stratagems and the ones that don’t is there are datasheets that are basically shared between them, like Plague Marines and Predators and such.
Seems like something they may address in March I guess and make more consistent, or put out another flowchart to try and parse like Index/Codex wargear.
Why does this Death Guard FAQ answer still exist? This is exactly the opposite of what they say they want.
Q: Is it possible to use a Stratagem from Codex: Chaos Space Marines to target a unit from Codex: Death Guard? For example, can I use the Tide of Traitors Stratagem on a unit of Cultists from a Death Guard Detachment if I have an Alpha Legion Detachment and a Death Guard Detachment in a single Battle-forged army?
A: Yes – if you have access to a Stratagem because you have an appropriate Detachment, it can be used on any permitted target: they do not need to be from that Detachment. In your example, the Alpha Legion Detachment gives access to the Chaos Space Marine Stratagems, and Tide of Traitors can be used on any Chaos Cultists – this would include any Chaos Cultists from the Death Guard Detachment.
That’s still true as they have the right faction keywords. The Chaos Marine ‘daemon’ units no longer have the Daemon faction keyword.
I agree this is weird see my comment above. Again there is no difference between faction keywords and keyword once army building is done except for Daemon Codex units.
What I’m saying is stratagems have always worked off of faction keywords (or naming specific units), so this applying to Daemon faction keyword isn’t new. I think the mistake was having a faction keyword that’s the same as a generic keyword.
(Basically I realised while typing this that we agree with eachother just in different ways :P)
I disagree, stratagems have always worked off any keyword not just faction keywords (when a keyword is specified). My point is once the battle starts there is no difference between keyword and faction keywords, You keep using the faction keyword language (it is all keywords not just limited to faction keywords unless specified in the stratagem and unless it is from the Daemon Codex). So yes, the Daemon faction keyword thing is new and a change plus it seems to only apply to stratagems from the Daemon Codex not say those from the CSM or Eldar codex. Nor does it apply to any other ability frm the Daemon Codex.
Stratagems refer to faction keywords, Astra Militarum is a faction keyword and doesn’t stop being one when the game begins, the unit entry doesn’t change. You can’t use them on any infantry or vehicles, it specifically states Astra Militarum infantry or vehicles, the thing that’s new is that there is a faction keyword and non-faction keyword that’s the same, which is the issue. Again I agree there’s something new and it’s an issue but just disagree what that is.
I was thinking of for example from the Eldar Codex, Avatar of Khaine, or Support Battery or Guardians or Bike or infantry or warlock. All of those are keywords that are mentioned in the text of stratagems and are not faction keywords. But I think we are basically, like you said above, talking about the same idea.
And it’s so weird that the strats don’t work but DG tanks being powered up by the Locus, Epidemius and Psy Powers is all gucci for some reason
Here’s something weird.
Frankie said plaguebearers can get up to damage 6.
Banner for damage of 2
Locus of +1 damage
Psy power to double the damage.
However multiplication is aplied first, it is 2*2+1 = 5 or if this comes from different things, you can do (2+1)*2 = 6