Chapter Approved is here and making waves as was expected. Read on for a review of the product!
So first of all, what is this book? It is a lot, a combination of supplement and update. It provides a ton of material for open play, narrative play and matched play 40k. So, it’s got something for everyone that enjoys 40k, really.
You can pre-order this new 40k supplement at a discount, here.
Open Play
Our customers have been most juiced about the Apocalypse rules as many of our regulars mostly play Apoc. Some were excited about the VDR rules coming back and everyone was laughing about some of the wonky Land Raiders it allowed you to field, but I have to admit it would be a lot of fun to make a custom Land Raider! I am glad it is only for Open Play at this time though, as I could see this causing some issues with Matched Play. Interestingly though, the Terminus Ultra falls under these rules and so has been moved to Open Play. There’s even a Chaos version, the Hades Diabolus, which rocks a Reaper Autocannon, two Heavy Bolters and two Twin Lascannons!
There also rules and tips for running large games, with scenarios, ways to stay organized, and how to determine the winner of what can be massive games of 40k, sometimes played over multiple tables. Apocalypse is a lot of fun but you really need to stay organized to ensure it doesn’t turn into a never ending game!
Narrative Play
The Narrative Play section gives us Planetstrike rules which I think is a good spot for them. You get unique detachments, stratagems, Warlord Traits and scenarios for games of Planetstrike. These come with unique deployments too, that while they certainly wouldn’t be too good for Matched Play games, provide some fun and interesting scenarios to play through to recreate famous battles from the 40k books. One player defends while the other attacks. These scenarios are challenging and provide a different way to play 40k if you aren’t the type to grind out matched play missions in a quest to master your list, which many people aren’t.
We also get Stronghold Assault back as well! This also comes with its own scenarios, Warlord Traits, stratagems, and custom detachments. These missions are a lot of fun and really mix up your normal games of 40k as you attempt to either destroy or defend fortifications in scenario driven missions. It also comes with new datasheets for many terrain pieces in the game.
Matched Play
Matched Play games get a lot of attention, too. There are some fairly large shake-ups. For one, the Character targeting rule changed, disallowing you from targeting them if any enemy models are closer, whether they are visible or not. This is both good and bad, as for one, a hidden unit closer to you stops you form shooting a character in the wide open which is annoying, but it also prevents “Rhino-scoping” which is intentionally moving models to block your line of sight to anything but a character, thereby getting around the old Character protection rules, which was also mega annoying.
Also, we got official ruling that CP cannot be used to re-roll mission rolls, such as first turn, or to end the game.
The new missions are a lot of fun and we get 6 of both Eternal War and Maelstrom. There’s also a fun section with ideas for making custom objective markers for your army.
Excitingly, there are new rules for many 40k factions, too. These include Warlord Traits, Relics, and stratagems. You will notice not everyone got something and the book points out these are for patient gamers who play factions that have not gotten a Dex yet. Some of those not included are factions like Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Daemons which we know are getting Dexes very soon.
Adepta Sororitas
- Warlord Trait: Inspiring Orator: Re-roll failed Morale tests for friendly Sisters units within 6″ of the Warlord.
- Stratagem(s):
- Martyrdom: 1 CP, used after a Sisters Character has been slain. On a 2+, one unit from your army that can use Acts of Faith may do so.
- Purity of Faith: 1 CP, When an enemy Psyker manifests a power within 24″ of a Sisters unit, deny the power on a 4+.
- Relic: Blade of Admonition: Replaces a Power Sword, strength +2, AP-3, 3 Damage.
Wow, not bad! The Sisters get some really useful kit. The ability to use Acts of Faith again after a unit dies is very good, and the ability to stop enemy psychic powers is very powerful. The Relic too, is great, and means you can expect to see a Cannoness near you flying around chopping things in half. While the Warlord Trait isn’t amazing it is also far from bad as Sisters don’t have a lot of way to mitigate morale and the ability to re-roll a flubbed morale check will keep more of your ladies on the table. In total this is a very solid set of rules for the Sisters.
Deathwatch
- Warlord Trait: Bane of Monstrosities: You can re-roll failed wounds rolls for your Warlord when attacking enemy Vehicles or Monsters.
- Stratagem(s):
- Clavis: 1 CP, used in the Fight Phase, select an enemy vehicle within 1″ of a Watch Master from your army and roll a D6, on a 2+ the vehicle suffers D3 Mortal Wounds.
- Death to the Alien!: 1 CP, grants bonus attacks on a 6+ to hit in the Fight Phase if you are not attacking Chaos, Imperium or Unaligned faction keyword units.
- Relic: The Beacon Angelis: once per battle at the end of your movement phase, you can teleport in a Deathwatch Infantry or Biker unit that is either in reserves or on the battlefield and are placed within 6″ of the bearer and more than 9″ away form enemy units.
Solid rules, indeed. The Warlord Trait particularly is nice as it works in shooting and melee. That makes your Warlord quite deadly against big targets. The Stratagems won’t always come in to play but when they do are very useful. And the Relic is awesome. Anything that gives you extra movement, especially that much extra movement, is very powerful. You can create some solid combos, bring a unit from hiding to the other side of the table to join in on an Alpha Strike, gran an objective, etc.
Drukhari
- Warlord Traits: Drukhari get not 1 but 3 Warlord Traits, one for a Wych Cult Warlord, and the others for a Haemonculus Coven and the last for any Drukhari Character.
- Blood Dancer: Hit rolls of a 6+ in the fight phase net you 3 hits, not just 1! This can also be given to Lelith Hesperax.
- Master Regenesist: The Warlord Heals D3 lost wounds at the start of each of your turns.
- Hatred Eternal: Re-roll hit rolls of 1 for this Warlord in the fight phase.
- Stratagem(s): Webway Portal: 1 CP/3 CP: Set up either 1 or 2 (for 3 CP) Infantry, Biker or Beast units in deep-strike reserves during deployment.
- Relic: The Parasite’s Kiss: Replaces a Splinter Pistol, 12″, strangth 1, AP-2, 2 Damage, always wounds on a 2+ except against Vehicles. Each time the weapon kills an enemy model, the bearer regains 1 lost wound.
Wow! Drukhari came out well. The Stratagem alone is massively good for them, allowing them to keep some of their fragile units off of the table. And trust me, having been on the receiving end of 20 Warriors deep-striking in multiple times, it is pretty savage. However, you can see how good this is with any of a wide variety of units both for offense and defense. The Warlord Traits are likewise extremely good and the Relic is also, very powerful, particularly on a melee character that gets stuck in and can give itself another round or two of longevity as it regains lost wounds.
Genestealer Cults
- Warlord Trait: Focus of Adoration: friendly Genestealer Cult infantry can perform Heroic Intervention while within 6″ of the Warlord, even if they are not Characters.
- Stratagem(s):
- Return to the Shadows: 1 CP, can be used to send a Genestealer Cults Infantry unit that is more than 6″ away from enemy units back in to reserves which can then reappear on the battlefield in the next turn using the Cult Ambush rules.
- Meticulous Uprising: 1 CP, use this stratagem before rolling on the Cult Ambush table. Roll 2D6 and choose the result you want. If the unit is a Primus or is appearing with a Primus, you can roll 3D6 and choose the result you like best.
- Relic: Icon of the Cult Ascendant: Acolyte Iconward only, add 1 to the strength characteristic of Genestealer Cult Infantry whil within 6″ of the bearer.
Again, some really useful upgrades for GSC. The Heroic Intervention Warlord Trait is a lot better than it may seem as it allows scrubs to get in the way of enemy charging units, or to just engage enemy units in their turn. The Stratagems are obviously awesome and provide a ton of utility and increased mobility for the GSC player. Both of them are going to see a ton of play. Lastly, that relic is just fantastic. Boosting the strength of your units means a massive increase in damage output in melee for your army.
Harlequins
- Warlord Trait: Luck of the Laughing God: Any character but the Solitaire, you may re-roll hit rolls of 1 for the Warlord.
- Stratagem(s):
- Webway Assault: 1 CP/3 CP: same as with Drukhari, but only for Infantry and Biker units.
- Primsatic Blur: 1 CP, after a Harlequins unit has advanced, increase their Invul save to a 3++ until the start of your next turn.
- Relic: The Mask of Secrets: the bearer increases their Leadership by 1. Additionally, all enemy units within 6″ reduce their Leadership by 1.
Outstanding. Webway assault for the fragile Harlequins is great and allows you to deliver a tough unit or two into the enemy lines while also keeping them safe at the begenning of the game. And the 3++ after advancing strat is clearly incredible! As Harlequins can advance and still assault, this is crazy good. The relic is also nice for the morale debuff as Harlequins do a lot of damage and stacking an additional negative modifier in there can help further damage nearby enemy units.
Imperial Knights
- Warlord Trait: Knight Seneschal: your Warlord gains 1 additional attack.
- Stratagem(s): Rotate Ion Shields: 1 CP, used when one of your Knights is targeted, they gain +1 to their invulnerable save for the rest of that phase.
- Relic: Ravager: replaces a Reaper Chainsword, strength +6, AP-3, 6 Damage, re-roll hit rolls of 1.
So, yeah, lol. These are very good. A Knight with a 4++ for one phase per turn, and a bonus attack at higher stength with increased accuracy is fantastic. Obviously. Might actually see Reaper Chainswords on the table again!
Necrons
- Warlord Trait: Enduring Will: any Necorn character other than a C’Tan, reduces damage your Warlord takes by 1 to a minimum of 1.
- Stratagem(s):
- Repair Subroutines: 2 CP, allows a Canoptek unit to use Reanimation Protocols until the end of your turn.
- Enhanced Reanimation Protocols: 2 CP, used before making a RP roll, allows you to re-roll rolls of 1.
- Relic: The Veil of Darkness: once per battle, the bearer and one friendly Necron Infantry units within 3″ may deep-strike anywhere on the table more than 9″ away from enemy units. Both units must end up wholly within 6″ of one another.
Necron players will be very happy with these. The ability to give Canoptek units RP is very powerful as is re-rolling 1’s when trying to bring back larger units. The Veil of Darkness is fantastic for getting what can be slower Necron units up the table to engage the enemy and combos with many of the other abilities like this they have access to. A clever Necron player can end up with a big chunk of their army right in their opponent’s face on turn 1. Lastly, that Warlord Trait is savage. Necron Character can already be tough nuts to crack, and damage reduction makes them even more durable.
Orks
- Warlord Trait: Might is Right: +1 to your Warlord’s Strength.
- Stratagem(s):
- Mob Up: 1 CP, used at the end of the movement phase, combines two like Ork Infantry units into 1 so long as 1 of the two is at or over 10 models and the other is at or below 10 models.
- DAKKA! DAKKA! DAKKA!: 1 CP, allows an ork Infantry or Biker units to generate extra shots on a 6+ to hit in the shooting phase.
- Relic: Headwoppa’s Killchoppa: Replaces a Big Choppa, strength +2, AP-2, D3 Damage. On a wound roll of a 6+, you deal D3 Mortal Wounds instead of the normal damage.
The Ork bonuses are a bit more subtle than some of the others. The Warlord Trait is cool if you are facing a lot of toughness 7 vehicles as it boosts your Klaw (if you are using one) up to strength 14, meaning you wound them on 2’s which is quite a boost in damage output. Mob Up is extremely good for mission play as it can be used to deny your opponent a Kill Point. It also allows you to fill out some of the CP rich detachments like the Brigade but then combine units together once the game begins to take advantage of Mob Rule, etc. Dakka has taken some criticisms but I really like it for units like War Bikers, Lootas and especially Flash Gitz, although it is quite good for just basic Shoota Boyz, too. Mathematically it isn’t going to set the world on fire of course, but I think it is important to remember it is only 1 CP and if you really need to take something down and want to trust a bit to luck, this is a good one. I think it will get used quite a bit more than some folks think. I use it pretty much any time I shoot my Lootas, Tank Bustas or Flash Gitz, personally unless I am saving the CP for something specific. The extra damage can be extremely useful. Lastly, the relic is awesome. It allows you to wound most infantry targets on a 2+, and can deal Mortal Wounds. A very solid choice.
Space Wolves
- Warlord Trait: Saga of the Warrior Born: your Warlord always fights first in the fight phase.
- Stratagem(s):
- True Grit: 1 CP, a Space Wolves Infantry unit can fire their Auto Bolt Rifles, Boltguns, Bolt Rifles and Bolt Carbines as if they had the Pistol 2 type.
- Cunning of the Wolf: 1 CP, used during deployment, allows you to put a unit in outflank reserves. They then appear at the end of a movement phase wholly within 6″ of a board edge and more than 9″ from enemy units.
- Relic: Krakenbone Sword: replaces a Frost Sword, strength +1, AP-4, 1 Damage, allows you to re-roll failed wound rolls.
Very, very good. Cunning of the Wolf alone is a game changer. As you’ve heard us say time after time, anything that can keep units off of the board is solid gold. You can then bring in hard hitting units behind your opponent or on a flank where they can strike without having had to take enemy fire on the way in. True Grit is likewise awesome for the ability to blast things while stuck in and really helps to crank up the damage output of your units. Striking first in melee is very powerful as anyone that has played against Slaanesh units can attest to. The Sword is surprisingly good as it is essentially a strength 5, AP-4 lightening claw. On a Wolf Lord with a Jump Pack for example, you can do massive melee damage to even heavily armored infantry. Not as good against some high wound targets, but great for clearing out units.
- Warlord Trait:
- Exemplar of the Kauyon: if your Warlord did not move, they can re-roll failed hit rolls. If they move for any reason, they lose the ability until the start of their next turn.
- Exemplar of the Mont’Ka: the Warlord can advance and still shoot as if he had not moved this turn.
- Stratagem(s): Uplinked Markerlight: 1 CP, after an enemy unit is hit by a Markerlight, place 1D3+1 Markerlight counters on the unit instead of only 1.
- Relic: Puretide Engram Neurochip: Once per battle, you can re-roll a single failed hit roll, wound roll or damage roll made for the bearer of a friendly unit within 6″ of the bearer. Additionally, every time you or your opponent use a stratagem, so long as the bearer is alive and on the table, on a 6 you gain a CP back.
The ability to re-gain CP is always solid and as it works when either player uses one you can expect to pick up an additional 2-4 CP in most games. The stratagem is quite good as it takes a lot of the variability out of Markerlight allocation. A lot of what the T’au do depends on landing those Markerlights and this is a way to crank that up reliably without requiring too many resources. As you use it after you hit a target, you can judge if you need to use it or not on the fly which makes it very efficient. The Warlord Traits are a bit limiting and will require a unit built to take advantage of them to be chosen over some of the generic traits in the BRB but I am sure we will see clever T’au players making good use of them.
Thousand Sons
- Warlord Trait: Arrogance of Aeons: Re-roll failed Deny the Witch tests you take for the Warlord.
- Stratagem(s): Cabilistic Focus: 1 CP, +2 to a casting roll for a Thousand Sons psyker within 6″ of at least 2 other Thousand Sons Psykers.
- Relic: Athenaean Scrolls: if you roll a double when making a successful Psychic test for the bearer, your opponent cannot attempt to Deny the Witch or stop the power by any means. You can still suffer Perils and if you die from Perils, the power does not go off.
- Psychic Powers: Tzeentch’s Firestorm, Warp Charge 7, select an enemy unit within 18″ of the psyker and visible to him, Roll 9 dice, the enemy unit takes a Mortal Wound for each roll of a 6.
Some very powerful rules, here. The ability to re-roll Deny, and to not be denied are super useful and sure to be seen quite a bit. The new Psychic power is also quite good for sniping out low wound Characters with a bit of luck. The stratagem likewise can be incredibly useful for getting that critical power off when you really need it. All around a lot to be excited about for Tzeentch players.
There are also some expanded terrain rules and campaign rules and guidelines, too. These help you get a fun ladder campaign going in your local scene. Lastly, and most interesting to many matched play players are points updates. These always cause controversy but I have to say I while some may sting a bit, they are largely very positive for the game as a whole. Many of the very under-costed Forge World units have gone up to reasonable price points (although some folks certainly debate how close to the mark they came, as is always the case). For example, Malefic Lords went up to 80pts, is a much more accurate representation of the models abilities when compared to other psykers. Another example is Bobby G and Celestine going up to 385 and 200 respectively. These models are seen in so many Imperial armies it’s crazy. They were too cheap for what they did and are now priced more fairly.
Inversely, many units that were under-performing got a points reduction. Many of the Primaris Marines went down in points, and units like the Kataphron Breachers and Destroyers dropped down to 30pts base.
Not every army got points changes and I will leave you all to figure that out but there is a logical reason for it which is not that GW doesn’t like your faction. A little patience will see that mystery resolved I am sure. And, while we may not all agree on each specific points change, it is great to see GW moving to balance the game which makes it more enjoyable for more people.
Which changes do you like the most or dislike the most? Why?
And remember, Frontline Gaming sells gaming products at a discount, every day in their webcart!
So are those the only traits/stratagems? I expected more than like 1 warlord trait, 1-2 stratagems for each faction. Plus having seen the leaks of the points, it doesn’t look like a ton changed.
So about that smite change…..
Yep they just made all the smite spam units cost a great deal more.
No, only a few. Primarus, weirdboys, spiritseers, etc are still plenty spammable.
They just destroyed Malefic Lords, apparently in no small part for being FW judging by the rest of the chances. Astropaths got a nice price hike from 15 to 30, which is fairly justified. Primaris Psykers went up a total of 6 points with equipment, and Spiritseers are untouched. Chaos Soup lost its easy access to it (good riddance), but Smite spam is alive and well.
Loving these changes! The dynamic updates are very interesting and most welcomed!
They do feel exhausting at the same time, so much things to keep up to date with.
Hoping things will slow down in 6 months or so when all codices are out.
Keep on the good work Reece and FLG staff.
So if a Geminae is a CHARACTER for purposes of HEADHUNTER, is a Geminae also a CHARACTER for purposes of the strategem that allows an act of faith? Say my Geminae dies during my opponent’s shooting phase, can’t I just spend a CP and get another act of faith right there and move Celestine out of LOS? The act of faith limitation is per turn, so if I play this during my opponent’s turn I wouldn’t even be bound by the acts of faiths I already used that turn.
Martyrdom: 1 CP, used after a Sisters Character has been slain. On a 2+, one unit from your army that can use Acts of Faith may do so.
Hey Wulfey,
Where was the ruling that Geminae are Characters for purposes of Headhunter? If so, couldn’t one of them also get the Sisters relic? It makes sense to me that Celestine could use the Act of Faith in the manner you described.
Geminae are characters because they have the character keyword in their unit listing.
So when one dies, I can use the act of faith strategem? This feels odd because one wouldn’t expect a strategem to be usable on a unit in which a character died, but the Celestine unit has some bizarre rules conundrums due to being a unit of characters.
Hmm, relic rules are based on CHARACTER, not unit. That implies yes, you can give a geminae a relic since she is a character, even though she is a unit with a named character? I doubt ITC will let that fly. And even then, you would have to take a pretty whack WL trait to get that cool power sword.
I might be missing something, but the WL traits above are not required, just additional options to the book. So if you don’t like the Sisters WL trait in CA, just choose one from the books?
It is optional, yes.
It certainly needs some clarification, I agree.
Seeing as they just stopped ynarri from using SFD to interupt an opponent’s turn, im surprised about this act of faith interupt.
Nice stopgaps for the folks playing armies still waiting for the good stuff.
There’s a pretty big snafu there though Reece: Succubi, queens of their wych cult, can’t actually use the Wych Cult warlord power. They’re forced to use their Archite glaive (because that’s what the model comes with) which gives a -1 to their hit roll. That means they can never roll a ‘6’ to get the bonus hits. The combat drug doesn’t help either, as it increases WS, not hit rolls.
Only thing I can think of is buy her a Agoniser or Power Sword…
TBH, my hope is that trait is a Copy-Paste from the Codex where this is not an issue and was an oversight by the GW team
Modifiers are not applied until after the roll so wouldn’t that mean a nat 6 triggers the warlord trait and then you apply the -1?
Thats how all other modifiers work.
No
Power from Pain gives you +1 to hit on Turn 3
Excellent point, I had forgotten about that. Frankie is the DE player here, and focused on them more than I did.
“Not every army got points changes and I will leave you all to figure that out but there is a logical reason for it which is not that GW doesn’t like your faction. A little patience will see that mystery resolved I am sure.”
Ooh, exciting!
Pretty sure he was telling us Orks, Dark Eldar, Space Wolves, and Necrons are all getting merged together as Tau auxiliary units. I think the fluff is moving ahead. A lot.
I could be wrong.
Don’t go upsetting the Tau players, they are feeling delicate at the moment. Well, according to the internets they are anyway.
Pretty sure that’s not what he was saying :{)
Yes!!!! Another book! And don’t forget the make a big toast now when I have to use more books in 8th then I did in 7th. But seriously, they realy should make a free downloadable pdf for the point changes. I’m not interested in anything else and it feels kinda wrong to “force” me to buy a book with a lot of other things in it just becuase I want to know the point changes and some updated rules for a book I already own. This has gotten somewhat overboard.
This is the big one. We need 1 master file of points. Right now there are heaps of books and pdfs that all are needed for the points. Let’s say I bring some (1) infiltrators and (2) sicarians in an admech detachment. That is:
Codex
PDF with sicarian point updates
Chapter approved with infiltrator point updates
Just for the points.
Don’t forget the index for the cost of units that have configuration options in the index that aren’t in the codex. (see Khan on a bike)
Never ceases to amaze me how some people aren’t happy unless they have something to gripe about 🙂
To be fair if you are building a list you own need to check 4 sources to make sure you have the correct point profile if you are building a squad and have a codex. First check codex then chapter approved to make sure the points haven’t changed, then index if your unit has a model with older setup, then forgeworld for any fw units and recheck chapter approved to make sure points didn’t change. Don’t forget to review FAQs for further changes. If it’s not convoluted now it will be the next mid year point review change. They are going to need to redo a master point list aka index 2.0 soon.
Sounds like all that is solved with a $100 Samsung Tablet. I know its where I’m leaning if the books keep piling up. Since you will want all the FAQ/Errata readily available as well.
Its also not bad if you just invest in a pure Codex army. The horror I know. Two books, the free rules pamphlet and the printed FAQ for your own army. All fits rather nicely in the old leather satchel GW gave out with 5th edition.
Even a one codex army has the codex, index, FW index, chapter approved, and FAQ.
Digital versions of codices gets updated with erratas and point changes… only need one book if you go digital
Do they? Mine have not so far.
A one Codex army is exactly that, just the Codex. You don’t *need* Index rules unless you are an long time player with old models no longer in circulation that you feel you just *have* to play with. You also don’t *need* to play with Forgeworld units.
You can compete and play competitively with using only the units you can walk into any official GW store and buy today.
Walking around with a pile of books is purely the result of the owner feeling they need the extra stuff in those books to play competitively. Which, you absolutely do not.
And, again, you can easily acquire a cheap tablet, for less then a lot of 40k/FW models, and have all your books and FAQ in one easy to use device. If you have a smart phone, you can use that as well.
The choice to do whatever is clearly up to the individual. But with all the available options to not carry around a pile of books, I really have no sympathy for those who, and this is important, entirely choose to do so.
But this is new GW so all crticism is invalid no matter what a clusterf.. 8th is or something that an unstable mess like this should be a beta test on cheap printouts instead of full color books. They sold us a milliion books in a mad spree at the end of 7th so it is only fair we have to buy more to sort out their mess. Foe some reason.
But blind dismissal and snarking at anyone not reflexively negative is fine?
Sure thing
Was there really no change to Smite or Battle-Forged armies or anything?
I believe detachments now have to come from the same Codex. So you can’t bring in Magnus and Mortarion on the same one at least, or with a Knight.
Where did he say this? I hipe it’s true, but what about things like assassins that have no HQ option?
That is the rumor, but it’s not officially confirmed yet. Not said anywhere in the reliable chapter approved leaks.
No change to Morty was disappointing, but the big things I think everyone was hoping for were smite spam and character targeting. Did they not address either of these?
Yea I was hoping to see a points reduction on him. At least other DG units got cheaper.
Morty doesn’t need a points reduction. He’s pretty strong has the ability to deal some huge damage.
Points reduction on Mortarion? Seriously?
Yea against any gunlines he melts. Not being T8 and only having a 3/4 save allows him to take tons of damage early.
He’s got a 4++/5+++, which is functionally a 3++. If he was any tougher he’d be impossible to deal with. Of course he’s gonna draw an army’s worth of shooting, it’s what it takes to kill him.
And a unit that gets taken alone in entirely different armies certainly doesn’t need buffs.
What about the points changes? Some of them seem random at best. Why did Wyverns go up in points, and Melta? None of them seemed to be that relevant in the meta at all.
Melta went up for BS 3+ models. Looks like they are keeping it on par with how they changed Plasma. Seems reasonable to me.
i play guard and all my scions have plasma anyway, but with the cheaper melta there was a debate about what was better to use plasma or melta, now there is no debate, its plasma no question.
I think that is a trend of the edition as a whole across all armies that have access to both.
If they feel melta needs some love, they would have to universally lower its cost in most armies at the same time (compared to plasma specifically).
Please tell me they came up with better character targeting rules than that! This is just going to make character spam that much better. You don’t have to bother with the Culexus. Just hide a bunch of scouts out of site and your characters will be invulnerable to shooting. Also, unless you have artillery or a weapon not requiring line of site, getting rid of these hidden units will be very difficult.
So annoyed about this! Why would they make a major issue WORSE?
Can we go back to having an ITC FAQ to fix this?
Just hang in there a bit, GW is aware of the game issues.
If only they had just sold us a book that could have adressed that.
+1
No, they’re saving it for Chapter Approved: the errata edition.
That way when I’m playing the game I have to reference an index, a codex, chapter approved, Forgeworld index, my codexes FAQ, and the Chapter Approved FAQ just to figure out how many points my model costs.
Then I have to reference all of that plus the BRB FAQ when I’m trying to figure out the rules I’m supposed to be playing under.
Oh, and if you’re not sure what your opponent’s models do – don’t bother asking to look at their codex. You’ll have to reference 6 different books for that as well.
The New gold chisseled “Adeptus Ministorum Flowchart” will show you what rule is found in what book now. It will cost a fortune and be wrong but you will be unreasonable to complain about that since chisseling takes long and they had to start before they knew the real answers.
“An enemy character cannot be targeted provided there are no non character visible enemy units closer”
a literally character only list is far more annoying and abusive to the character targeting rule
why doesnt GW fix it?
if your character can sniped out by rhino-scoping, you are just positioning your character wrong
So, correct me if I’m wrong, almost nothing changed rules wise. Character rule was tweaked and we knew everything else already as announced by GW months before on the preview.
So things that still are not fixed:
Soup lists
Hordes being way more survivable than Big guys because anti-horde weapons work on Big guys better for some reason, yet anti big guy weapons will never kill more than 1-3 models in a 3pts horde.
Smite spam making elite armies worthless
Armour saves value adjustment. 3 guardsmen being almost 2x more survivable than 1 Marine who cost the same and doing more damage.
Character spam. It got IMPROVED?
3 Superheavy armies still have +3 CP.
All of these things were not touched at all?
The points changes are mostly done well direction wise(up or down) but not volume wise. Units that were too strong are now basically useless. Units that were too weak are still too weak. -5 pts for kataphrons will change nothing.
Forgeworld got a hidden “you can’t use them in competitive matched play” rule with invisible ink as all the viable things got destroyed. No wonder you guys said you’ll allow FW and 30+PL when they are so bad no one wanting to win would ever take them.
It’s painfully obvious GW doesn’t employ mathammer at all when changing pts values(which are numbers btw). Changes feel as though no one put any actual mathematical work into them. “This should probably cost this much”, “This should probably cost that much” and that was that.
This is not an attack against the testers as GW have shown time and time again that they willingly go against them(first turn rule, heroic intervention rule, etc..)
In depth points things for AdMech(remember. Something with an offensive upgrade should ALWAYS be better as your sacrificing durability per point by increasing the pts value of the model):
Cawl – uh… sure…? Wasn’t he supposed to increase in price as he is a must take?
Dominus – needed a pts reduction. -10 is not enough. Cawl and Enginseer(as they got a reduction too) will continue to dominate the HQ slot. Eradication Ray and Phosphor serpenta are still much worse than their counterparts when they should be better.
Should’ve been 90 pts base, the weapon prices should switch as the upgrades are worse and cost more right now
Enginseer – needed a pts reduction. -5 is not enough. Still has a dumb overcosted servoarm attached to him. Why wasn’t that changed? Just make it cost 2 so servitors would actually be viable. Enginseer shuold be 30 base + 2 pts for the arm as he is just a tax. He can’t shoot or fight at all.
Breachers – needed a huge pts reduction. -7 is not nearly enough. Torsion cannon remains a complete joke that should be free to be viable. Arc Rifle remains an anti vehicle weapon with STR 6 and AP 2… Seriously. Read those stats again… Defense wise they are almost good. However the rules of the game go against them. Multi wound units are a lot weaker than the same amount of 1 wound units.
Destroyers – needed a change in their durability somehow or a big pts reduction. Right now they are OK at doing damage but their durability is one of the worst in the game and they can be targeted as soon as turn 1. Why take these when DakKastelans exist who do similar damage and are way way waaaaay more durable.
Fulgurites – needed a pts reduction because their durability is terrible. -1 is most certainly not enough. Why were they increased to 17 to begin with? They don’t do much damage as their weapons work against multi wound models (which are not popular as screening units) and they aren’t that much more durable even with they 3++ buff because they still remain toughness 3 trash.
Cospuscarii – needed a pts reduction because their durability is even worse. Least durable unit we have. Completelly unchanged despite seeing 0 competitive play.
Kastelans – unchanged. Melee is way overpriced still and sees 0 competitive play. Ranged should’ve gotten a price increase as they are a no brainer.
Datasmith – needed a pts reduction. Powerfist got fixed. Might actually be taken now as a fill for elite. Probably not though. The insta protocol switch is too powerful in most cases to bother with these.
Servitors – stated as the worst unit in the game. Remains unchanged. Thanks. Why does servo arm still cost 12 again?
Vanguard and rangers – still outclassed by most troops. Upgrades still terrible on slow, fragile, vulnerable to morale bodies. Pistols still useless. Melee weapons still useless.
Infiltrators – still outclassed by most deepstrikers. Terrible durability. If they whiff their charge – they are really bad.
Ruststalkers – UNCHANGED?!?! What??? The deserved their price cut in half (not even kidding)
Balistarii – Unchanged??? They are outclassed by every other artilerry we have…
Dragoons – Unchaged? The ranged version is terrible and no one in their right mind would ever take them as ranged.
Onagers – Eradication Beamer still sucks and the worst one (phosphor) remains unchanged.
So what actually changed at the end of the day? Vanguard and Rangers good better but still not great. Breachers might actually be used to screen(doubt it). Overpriced HQs are now less overpriced.
What didn’t change: every useless unit(Breachers, Destroyers, Ruststalkers, Balistarii, Servitors, Datasmith, Dominus) and upgrade(too many to name) are still useless and probably won’t see any play. Wah wah…
I was certainly expecting Cawl and kastelans to increase in price.
-Soup lists are by design I dont think they plan or want to “fix” this.
-Conscripts which are the horde problem unit went up in points costs
-Smite spam was fixed by making all the cheap units that allowed the spam do double or triple in costs. (Doubt this will be a problem anymore)
-Don’t think anyone was looking for armor save adjustments or wanted them. This is done by points.
-Character spam again will be harder since most of the units that allowed it got more expensive.
-Not sure about the CP bonus for the knights. This would most likely come in a codex.
– Stupid design then. All the Xenos races are skrewed over by having a 10th of a selection when picking stuff. Also all pure races are skrewer because they have weaknesses by design (As they should) but those weaknesses are easily covered by an ally.
– Conscripts were just a part: cultists, brimstones, ork boyz, etc etc. And anti-horde weapons being more efficient at killing tanks(because hordes are so cheap pts per wound wise) is just stupid no matter how you slice it. 46 wounds on brimstones or 11 on an Onager. hmm……….
– Primaris psykers say hi. Also I know a guy who was destroying people with heralds alone. Those weren’t changed at all. Smite spam is not dead. Elite armies still are though…
– Done by points poorly. Again. Armour saves are overvalued and pure wounds are undervalued(see hordes). It’s as if they were still in the “penetrates or doesn’t penetrate at all” era when they valued them. Right now 2+ means next to nothing compared to a 2+ in 7th edition.
– What are these “most”. Malefic Lords got removed from the game and Primaris psykers got a slap on the wrist. What are these “most” you speak of.
– I really don’t want 3 superheavy armies to be so rewarded. This one is on me. I don’t think 3 unit armies should do better than big complex armies as they take much less skill to utilize properly
Guess your salty about it. However, I know me and plenty others like the changes. They just didn’t go about it the way you wanted, but to me what they makes sense. With a book like this you will never make everyone happy especially in a gamer community.
I think hordes and smite spam are a thing of the past. Well unless you include Orks/tyranids which are horde armies (cultists are not good for hordes). I don’t really care for soup, but it isn’t really a problem and it makes sense from a game design perspective. Girly Man, Celestine, and Lords were the primary soup offenders and they all received nerfs.
The problem is that there are barelly any changes. What actually changed rules wise (not pts wise)
There are also 3 more (confirmed) books coming out in the next two months. The heralds you speak of being in one of them. Who knows if their points are adjusted in there or not. These point adjustments were likely very much taken from and compared with books that we the general public have yet to see as part of the greater picture.
And I guess it seems no one plays with Tyranids around. Pretty sure that book made playing Smite Spam fairly dangerous as long as someone throws in a Kronos detachment.
Soup is a travesty. What’s the point of armies havibg strengths and weaknesses when you can just take allies to fix it at near no penalty? As long as you’re not a filthy Xenos, that is.
Conscripts are useless, but they’re not the only horde and it doesn’t change the fact that the changes to damage, wounding and AP all fucked over elite armies.
The main culprit of Smite spam was destroyed. The second took a slap on the wrist. Anything else is unchanged.
I’m not sure where you got that most spammable characters got more expensive. Only MLs took a noticeable big hit.
Soup is one of those things that work for fluffy games, and break down once you add competitive “min/maxing” and “optimizing” to it. It used to be you could never compare things cross-faction (e.g. W in X faction is better than Y in Z faction) because factions were balanced (ha!) to each other. But with soup, it’s always a question of that. If X in Admech is OP, just take Y in Guard instead to fill that same slot. It throws a wrench into any sort of balance because the competitive crowd will min/max everything, so anything that isn’t the most optimal in their own faction will just be taken from another faction as a soup list when able to.
Agreed on all counts. Pretty big disappointment honestly. They could’ve given a hand to the Hazards…
Malanthropes are now 140 points, what what!?!$?@
Didn’t you know? FW is removed from matched play (basically)
The only units to be “removed” from normal play were ones that were intended for Apoc to begin with
Good change. And yes, I play nids.
totally agree. I have a large nid force but play my guard this edition and my main opponent is nids, with the new book, malanthropes at 90 points were a insane steal. They are not going away at 140.
Exactly. You will still see 1-2 of them in every list. They were WAY too cheap before and I am a Nid player that brings two. They are fairly priced, now.
You can nitpick if 140 is the right number or not, but bottom line they needed a cost increase. If anyone swaps a malanthrope for 3 venomthropes because of this change, I’ll be shocked…. unless they have a really specific list.
Plus all you need to do is pop some Hive Guard out of site and the malanthrope is no longer targetable, lol
Malanthrope was WAY too good @ 90 pts (became an auto include and it was always tempting to take 2).
Now it’s too expensive @ 140.
120ish would have been a good middle ground.. but there’s always next year.. 🙁
I think 120 is probably more in line, I just don’t know what prompted an increase, I haven’t heard of complaints or “malefic” abuse regarding the m-thrope, I mean although 90 points was certainly a steal for what it offered defensively it wasent much of an offensive powerhouse, the thing was often the last unit on the board of almost every battle I’ve used it in.
I think Malanthrope is still a pretty good option, a lot better than 5 or even 6 Venomthropes. Just don’t take more than 1.
I play ‘nids too. Let’s be honest here: at 90 points, it was nobrainer.
He will still be in every list, lol. 90pts was crazy too cheap as you noted.
“The Ork bonuses are a bit more subtle than some of the others.”
ie they don’t do anything much
“Dakka has taken some criticisms…….. Mathematically it isn’t going to set the world on fire…..I think it will get used quite a bit more than some folks think.”
ie People have already worked out it is not good……. maths suggests they are correct……Orks have nothing much else so still might use it.
I agree with you mkstly, but thw dakka dakka strategem is pretty decent if you use it on tank bustas firing on a vehicle. Pretty much ensure it dies which could be cool.
Yeah, it baffles me that some Ork players are actually upset, lol. They got a rule they didn’t have that is a benefit. It may not be as big of a benefit as some would like, but holy crap, to get angry about gaining benefits is so weird and missing the forest for the trees.
Because most of the Ork index doesn’t just need small, subtle bonuses. Most of the index needs serious boosting to see a competitive tabletop. Why can’t Orks have something as effective as “2CP shoot twice” like some others? Ork shooting is coming from a less effective starting point to begin with.
Every one else gets useful stratagems, except Orks, therefore making Orks weaker. You made Orks weaker and wonder why they get annoyed at you for it. It’s not rocket science bro, use your brain.
I get you man and at this point Im basically made of salt but let’s stay nice. Not the arguement “be happy you got anything at all” is a good one considering you are a paying customer.
And again, if you are frustrated or upset, fine, but please don’t comment like that. I do use my brain, haha, I just my disagree with you on certain points. No need to toss insults, doesn’t accomplish anything.
As for the Ork strats, they are useful. The crazy overreaction to them is strange to me as I am probably one of the only people in this discussion to have actually used them in practice, but hey, what would I know, lol.
Anyway, if you want to see the glass half empty, be my guest. I would wait until you actually play some of this stuff to draw conclusions.
damn name bug, making people whine using my name
Yeah, sorry, still trying to work out what is causing that.
Reece, if you are so experienced with using the Dakka! Stratagem maybe you should put up a battle report of you using and winning with it, really show us “whining ork players” how it’s done.
Put your money where your mouth is.
You won’t though, it’s terrible. I’ve run the maths.
Your two or three games using it where the dice swung in your way and you only remember that one time because of conformation bias doens’t count.
My goodness dude, lol, this doesn’t need to be an adversarial conversation. I apologize for using harsh language, myself, it probably didn’t help anything.
But, the attitude that you get boned is just wrong. Don’t use any of the CA stuff, don’t use the lower points, etc. You are in the same place you were, fine, nothing changed. You didn’t get anything negative.
And as I stated, the Dakka! stratagem isn’t a tool you “win the game” with. Most stratagems aren’t. It is a tool you use at the right time. And when we film bat reps, we don’t know who is going to win in advance, that would be silly. We play the game and it goes how it goes. I’m happy to show things off but there are not assurances in advance, obviously.
I love my Orks, I will play them in a bat rep just because I enjoy them. But I am not going in to it to prove a point and prove you wrong and me right, that would be petty. It would be fun to just show off what some of the new stuff can do. The viewer can take that information however they choose.
I’d like this dude to do a battle report of him using it and losing with it – really show us non-whining Ork players how it’s done.
Put your money where your mouth is.
“But, the attitude that you get boned is just wrong. Don’t use any of the CA stuff, don’t use the lower points, etc. You are in the same place you were, fine, nothing changed. You didn’t get anything negative.”
Really dude? We get less than EVERY OTHER FACTION, but “Nothing changed”, sure.
I had thought better of you, I’ve tried to make you understand why we are getting upset, but it’s not working. Nothing happens in a vacuum, you buff one faction, others get lower by comparison.
Orks got two Buffs, -12 Points on Klaws & ‘Mob Up’, both of which will make Orks more powerful, ‘Mob Up’ might be borderline broken. Everything else is meh.
BUT All the minor factions got BETTER buffs, and the factions that got Nerfs overall (SM & AM) are still far and ahead stronger than Orks.
That is all I am saying. The fact that you won’t even entertain this idea, is the reason why I am frustrated & have continued this discussion on so long.
Well, FWIW, I have not tried to upset you. But, I think we’ve come to an impasse and I think it is best to agree to disagree.
Disregard the strats which you clearly don’t like, enjoy the nice points reductions and very good relic, I guess. Regardless of what either of us thinks, this is what CA brought you, love it or hate it.
What Relic? the extra -1 AP BigChoppa? with the every second Fight Phase you get D3 Mortal instead of D3 damage? that you have a chance to do less damage than a regular BigChoppa? Are you talking about that and saying it is good? You do realize that it is the worst Melee Weapon Relic in the game right? Compare it to any other Melee Weapon Relic over what it replaces, the second worse probably being the GK Destroyer of Crys’yllix, which has +1 Damage over a regular Daemon Hammer, honestly a BigChoppa with a flat 3 Damage would almost be better than this failure.
You do more damage with a PowerKlaw due to the -3AP on it. You have to spend 7pts to buy a BigChoppa to even take the relic, it’s trash, stop trying to convince people that this crud is good.
The Warlord Trait, the +1 Str, you do realize that this is calculated after the doubling right? With a Klaw it gives you Str 13, not 14.
Rulebook, Page 175, sidebar “Modifying Characteristics”, Addition is calculated after Multiplication.
How are we suppose to get balanced working rules from you guys if you don’t even know the rules properly?
Like how you got Heroic Intervention wrong in that battle report?
You keep trying to put a lame Marketing Student Spin on this junk, but we know better. I’ll be back tomorrow to, yet again, shut down your pathetic attempt to salvage this argument.
Lol, OK, bro. I think you are taking this a little too seriously.
I do occasionally get rules wrong, yup. It happens. But if you expect people to have perfect knowledge of the rules in order to comment on anything in the game, the list will be really short, as in, no one, lol.
And the trait modifies his strength stat to 7, then the Klaw takes it to 14. I see how you could read it otherwise but it is like the old debate with Thunderwolves which also got rules the way I describe. Read the designer’s commentary for more clarification on it.
And for a 7pt item, yes, 100% the Killchoppa is a great weapon, and gives you the chance to bust through high invul saves which Orks lack. However, if you don’t like it, don’t use it. I don’t know what to tell you, lol. Yelling at me won’t make it’s stats change to something you like.
But whatever, you are clearly upset so let’s just let it go, lol. I sincerely hope you have fun playing with your Orks, if it is with CA or not.
Take it easy.
Occasionally make a mistake? LOL, this is you on the Dakka! Stratagem:
“I use it pretty much any time I shoot…”
Your blatant insistence on saying something is good despite everyone knowing (not thinking, knowing mathematically) that it is shit is why you are becoming an Internet meme “Reece Spin”.
Did you see the comments on your latest Youtube video? everyone knows you are full of shit.
“Take it easy, BRO”
Another meme of me? Sweet! Another for the collection!
Dakka Dakka isn’t worth the 1cp, you should actually get cp refunded for even thinking about using it :).
I know that by posting this i too am a whining guy on the internet. And yes GW is finally making the balance updates we have been waiting for, but some of these feel beyond random at best. Especially many point changes to FW feel completely disproportionate to the point where it feels more like removing units from the game than an actual balance change.
All in all im happy GW made an attempt, im just very miffed about the attempt itself. Hopefully the other stuff in the book such as apocalypse games etc is up to snuff and makes it worth my money.
The thing all of these changes make me miss the most is a working army builder app by GW itself. To make a list or check an opponents list we now have to check the codex, FAQ and chapter approved. We really need codes to a digital product that gets updated whenever we buy a physical index if we go forward like this.
Yeah.. I am genuinely glad that attempts at balance have been made .. But a lot of these feel like poorly thought out knee jerk reactions. I have no idea what the idea is with the FW LOWs.. the good ones have been increased but way too much, and the bad ones have gone up too. I dunno .. balancing is good for the game but a loot of people are going to be annoyed thier expensive new toy is useless.
Also conscripts.. what.
For instance i have been using the FW greater blight drone. It was more expensive than the GW foetid bloat drone and pretty much worse in every aspect. However i like to feel like im not spamming as hard, i have one painted up that looks cool, ill bring it to friendly games. Went up hugely in points here. What the hell ive never even seen anyone actually playing with one other than myself! I really dont understand the choice.
Conscripts… After the comissar change and some other stuff this was just completely over the top. Maybe they will revert the comissar change once chapter approved is officially released?
Malefic lords… Yes i did not like the spam but going from 30 to 80 is a huge leap, especially for a model that essentially is a primaris psyker. Now look at how many points a primaris psyker costs.
Aetaos’Rau’Keres… We were seeing him in competetive and he was a scary strong bird. Perhaps he goes up by 100 or 200 points. No instead he goes from 700 to 1500!? Are you telling me your first balancing pass was so abd you were off by 800 points because i find that hard to believe. Just seems like they went “nah we dont want to see him in competetive” and rather than do an actual balance change they just slapped a whole bunch of points on so we dont see him anymore. All of the FW stuff feels like it just disproportionately went up hugely for almost random reasons.
And then we have the general idea of lets make Guilliman 25pts more expensive, that will make the difference!
It is easy to moan from the sideline but to me the list of changes were a handful of good ones and then the vast majority of misses. Perhaps if GW released an article somewhere talking through some of the changes and their rationale behind them which pretty much any video game developer does as well we might see the direction they want to take the game in and why this would take us closer in that direction. For now though this seems like it has done absolutely nothing to positively affect balance, just flip around some units between too strong and utterly useless.
This. All of this.
I have to agree that some FW stuff seemed to go WAY up in points while Guilliman is only 25 points more expensive… For instance I was planning to run a Magnus+Aetaos in my competitive list, but there is no way that’s going to happen now. Actually all the exalted greater daelons seem extremely overcosted now, specially when compared to Magnus, who is argusbly better than some, while a lot cheaper. I don’t know, I feel GW just nuked much of FW stuff out of competitive play for no reason…
The only units that got “nuked” were ones meant for Apoc level play and the all to abusable maleific lord
Also several of the Eldar and Ork units, various IG ones, some miscellaneous Chaos stuff, etc.
The Apoc units were rendered wholly unusable, but many others were affected as well.
” Perhaps if GW released an article somewhere talking through some of the changes and their rationale behind them which pretty much any video game developer does as well we might see the direction they want to take the game in and why this would take us closer in that direction.”
+1!!!!!
I really think GW needs to have designer commentary like, for example, Privateer Press does when they buff/nerf/change things for Warmahordes. It would show what their thought process is. Right now, it looks totally haphazard, like they picked things at random and increased/decreased points randomly without actually understanding the reason why they needed to be adjusted, and how to correctly adjust them.
That sort of random tweaking works in an online game where you can do weekly patches if you go too far/not enough to attain parity; when it’s a yearly book that costs money, you kind of expect the designers to actually be competent enough to know what the problems are, and what the expected fixes are, not “Oi let’s drop this by 10 points” as balancing.
We are mere peasants unworthy of seeing their divine process.
Thing is then wishing they would be more proactive we sort of asumed that included them being any good at it. Which to be fair was never a reasonable assunption. The people who brought us the 7th Codex Tyranids and Scatbikes and somehow thought these things belong into the same game aren’t suddenly going to be able to deliver a whole new level of quality.
Would have loved to see deff koptas drop a little more, still the 4pt decrease is goood enough. Just love those models haha
Conscripts are pretty much worthless now. I can get thirty Guardsmen or thirty Conscripts for the same cost and the thirty Guardsmen are better by a great deal and less liable to die en masse to morale. They receive Orders without a roll and they have actual options, not to mention the strategic and tactical flexibility offered by having three units on the table opposed to one. Fixing Conscript horde spam was important, but the union of size capping( max 50 to 30), half of all orders failing, point cost increase, and Commissar nerf make Conscripts an awful choice for any Commander of the Imperium.
Conscripts are fine, people are overreacting. They are 4pts per model just like most other screen units on a similar scale. Cultists, Gants, etc. are all the same. Conscripts have better defense than either, and worse offense. All of them have access to awesome buffs that can make them quite good, the Conscripts are defensive in nature, being able to go up to a 3+ very easily, and if you have a single unit of them, morale is not an issue. If you want to run lots, Valhalla is the thematic choice and does it well.
I still use them, personally. I take 5 units of Infantry as they are better as you noted, but the fact that you can start with a unit of 30 means your defensive buffs go a lot further on them and it makes it harder to take them out in a single turn, denying a KP, First Strike, etc. etc.
They are far from unplayable as some folks claim, they’re just at what they should have been from the word go. You will see a lot less of them for sure, but is that bad? Playing games against 200 conscripts was not super awesome. The focus has returned to the main unit in the dex, the infantry squad which is good, IMO.
Most of those other options don’t have blatantly superior options in their own codex which fulfill the same role at the same cost while also having loads of extra options and flexibility.
I agree conscript nerf is over the top. I have the feeling the people writing the chapter approved book are not talking to the people who just did the conscript/commissar nerf. And obviously this chapter approved book had no one from FW helping.
Regardless the 4ppm being the same cost as infantry makes absolutely no sense. That needs to be reverted back to 3ppm. Also the commissar change invalidates that model as well because over half the time it’s worse to use the commissar. The nerf to the commissar was needed as well but it needs to get rid if the cost of a model to reroll morale. Just make him be “you may reroll morale for units within 6in”. Simple and not abusable or overpowered or detrimental to the player. I assure you with that commissar change and 3ppm conscripts that can only be taken in units of 20-30 and only take orders on a 4+ you won’t see conscripts abused in competitive play.
There are a lot of little things that need to be fixed in 8th edition that could make many units useful and it seems GW in its haste to balance the codecs are falling back into thier old ways.
Conscripts were too good at 3ppm. Previous nerfs wasn’t enough to end with the conscript spam. Infantry squads should probably get to 5ppm to put AM in the right spot of balance, but at least conscripts are noy so oppresive now.
AM is the sub-faction of multipliers. On their own, guards are shitty models, but as they get affected by auras, orders and other sinergies they quickly become better than anything at their cost range. They can move double, shoot double or fight double (orders); reroll 1s on hitting and wounding, +1″ to charge, advance and morale (girlyman); double their attacks (priests); gain L (comissars); gain a 6++ easily upgraded to 5++ (celestine + psykers/stratagems); just to say a few.
This.
I have to say that although Malefic Lords were maybe a bit too cheap, making them cost as much as two Primaris is the wrong way to go with them. They might be a bit more durable than their AM counterpart but they’re no better at Smiting and get less useful other powers. I think a better change would have been to keep their points about the same but have them lose their psychic powers after they Peril, which would be more like how they used to work in any case.
The Sisters rules are a bit odd. The sword isn’t all that much use since a Canoness can’t get a jump pack (which given the Geminae, who are meant to be Canonesses, is daft), so you’re limited really to giving it to a Seraphim Superior or one of the Geminae, if the latter is even legal. Celestine’s unit in general causes a few issues- we need to know if the fact that Celestine is a named character prevents the Geminae from taking the relic, whether the deaths of Geminae trigger Martyrdom (RAW but seems exploitative) and whether you can trigger the Act immediately to move Celestine’s own unit.
The Deny Stratagem is nice, but I don’t think it’s reliable enough. Sisters are meant to be one of the most psychically resistant factions in 40k, so it should either be a 2+ or allow 4+ to deny all powers in the turn it’s used.
Feels like the people balancing points are not talking to one another. FW earhshakers needed to go up in points, but why do they cost more than basilisks (they have more wounds, better saves and more mobility)
Not sure why wyverns went up, they were marginally good before, but falling off due to hit modifers.
There seems to be a bit to many ‘nail in the coffin’ changes for units across many factions. I would prefer if they just made small adjustments.
On a posetive note:
It’s nice to see the index armies get some love and looking forward to the new ladder missions. FW stuff being overcosted should atleast lift the ban, so people that are not competitive can bring the models they enjoy.
As for the platforms, they are better than Basilisks. They do not have a degrading profile and can shoot if engaged in melee. They’re the more optimal choice and even at the same points would be taken over the Basilisk.
Uhhhh….. Reece? The Warp Hunter was overcosted and never used……. and Forgeworld made it +60 points? What the….. That poor thing is clocking in around 300 points now but it isn’t worth even 200.
Shadow Specters were too good with Alatioc being able to stack -1 to hit, but +10 per model makes them unplayable for anyone other than Alatioc now. Even then, 33 points per model pretty much relegates them to shelfbait. This is the kind of thing that makes people feel forced to play just this one best Craftworld.
Corsair Reavers still don’t make sense even with a couple points shaved off.
1) If you include a Reaver in your detachment it’s not , therefore you have no craftworld power for anything in the detachment. This makes them unplayable on their face.
2) Reavers have a 0-point Shardcarbine (3 poison shots), or a 7-point lasblaster (3x S3 shots). This makese no sense!
3) Reavers are still paying extra points for their sergeant while every other unit in 40k gets a free sergeant.
In other news…..
The Revenant is basically the same cost as the frigging Phantom titan now. This is absurd.
I heard there might be a limit on multiple -1s to hit stacking so 6s always hit, or was that just wishful thinking?
Dude, why do you keep posting under my name?
It’s a bug, I am still trying to work out what is causing it. Sorry for that.
Once again not me posting this. Not sure if something went wonky or if its some guy trolling
The fog Name bug ?
F
L
G
Name bug
They are still better than Druhkari Reavers at a whopping 30 points each.
I will love to read some objectively critical comments about any of these rules. Hell, Orks got the shaft and I’m sure it would of been really comforting to have someone tell Ork players they agree a mark was missed here, and hopefully the codex is cheaper.
I love you guys, but this isn’t a review.
It’s an ad.
Yeah it’s ok synopsis but not as review. EG
3plusplus are doing reviews that say whats good but also bad http://www.3plusplus.net/
Hey, you can view it all as you wish but please remember all reviews, even AP’s (who is my friend) are expressing opinions, and you should view them critically, too. Just because someone says things are bad, doesn’t mean that they are either right or wrong. It’s just a point of view, as are my own. I have consciously tried to be more positive in my reviews and to look for ways to find uses for under-powered units and such. That’s all.
No, it just means that you aren’t actually able to discern good things from bad things.
After all, when you say that a warlord trait that literally can’t be used is good, what else should everyone expect?
What Warlord trait can you not use?
And I can discern good from bad, lol, I just choose to try and present things in a positive light and give ways to make them useful instead of just proclaiming things “garbage” and moving on, which is silly and not productive.
The Wych Cult warlord trait only applies to the Succubus (the only Wych HQ model.) It triggers on rolls of 6+ in combat, but the Succubus comes standard with the Archite Glaive (-1 to hit) as her only weapon, meaning that unless she gets a bonus to hit, the warlord trait will never trigger.
And while there is some value to making a positive assessment of rules, even when they aren’t optimal or competitive-tier, at the same time if you always tell everyone that everything is good, they will eventually begin to discard your opinion as not being relevant. Being honest about where units and abilities fall on a the power curve is a much more useful tactic- and yes, opinions can differ as to where different options fall, but if you’re consistently rating things higher than everyone else, chances are that your bias is on the high side, not that everyone else is on the low side.
The trait also applies to Lelith Hesperax who can most assuredly use it.
And the Succubus can exchange her Splinter Pistol for an Agoniser or Impaler….how can she not use the trait?
And yes, I understand the point you are making in regards to “ranking” units. I made a lot of hay with the old “Good, Bad and Ugly” reviews I used to write. I get that. However, the big difference I think is that we have been playing with these units for a LOT longer than the other reviewers. We’ve gone through the initial emotional reaction and played them a lot (as that is literally our job, lol) and found ways they were used well. Many other reviewers are going off of only reading rules and not actually playing them, or playing them very little and then forming a judgement based off of that limited experience.
I am not saying either Frankie or I are smarter, or better players or what ever, simply that we have a lot more experience with the material. That gives us a different perspective. I mean, how many times have we all reacted to a unit off the cuff thinking they were too good or too bad, but after playing them a few times found that the truth was somewhere in the middle? Happens all the time, and that is where we are at when everyone else is at step 1.
That is true, Lelith can make use of it, but my impression from most DE players is that Lelith… isn’t very good. Which is sad, ’cause she’s actually pretty neat, but I’m certainly willing to concede that as a relevant point.
And yeah, you can swap out to buy an Agonizer, but that is missing the main thrust of the argument: that the Wych Cult warlord trait is very poorly designed, because GW clearly didn’t really think about how the rules interacted there. Your HQ model shouldn’t need to pay additional points in order to buy a worse weapon than what they already have in order to be able to use their warlord trait- that’s poor game design right there, because even when it _does_ work, it still feels frustrating to the player. Their HQ has this really cool weapon that is stronger than anything else available in the faction, but they can’t use it if they want to be able to do anything with their trait? That just feels bad, regardless of how you want to argue the mechanical efficiency.
It’s problems like these that make players frustrated with GW. Yes, they are trying harder these days and despite all of the issues with 8E, I think it’s infinitely better than 7E. But there is still some very, very sloppy rules writing going on and, like a lot of people, I’m still not 100% sold on The New And Totally Different Games Workshop That Won’t Be Like It Was Before, You Guys, We Totally Promise. We’ve heard this song and dance before and gotten burned on it, so I don’t think it’s unreasonable for people to take things like the Wych Cult trait as a negative indication- not an absolute one, but not one that should be instantly disregarded, either.
I understand those frustrations. However, and I get why DE players wouldn’t jump to this conclusion as they lack the information, consider that these rules are perhaps geared more towards Codex DE than Index. I know that doesn’t do squat for them now, as they are playing with what they have currently, but that is possibly the reality.
And my issue was that folks were saying it was unusable, which was just not true. I actually thought I might have missed something, lol, but it was just hyperbole. And I don’t disregard concerns and critiques at all, but they need to be at least accurate and not laden with emotional reactions that distort reality as I am sure you can understand.
At a certain point the number of exclamation marks and wows just sound a bit too much like a Nintendo Magazine or, more appropriate, a white dwarf inkonsequent “Review”. Even if it is written with the best Intention any review by someone with direct ties to the publisher will be seen with scepticism. Even more so since the exact nature and rules of the cooperation with GW are yet another secret. They sure like those.
OK bro, chill out. I always write like that, go back and check any of my old articles.
I am under no obligation to say anything or present anything in a certain way. I just choose to try and be positive. Also, I have been playing with these things for a while now and so the initial reaction has come and gone.
And yeah, I can’t say why they do things (when I actually know) which can be frustrating for you guys, but it is what it is. I understand their reasons for the silence.
Nobody can know any of that. All we can know is that there is some sort of deal with GW and that the exact nature of that deal is a secret.
This can be 100% your honest opinion but for anyone sceptical, it looks a lot like an ad and this will keep coming up. There is a reason even video game reviews that try to be serious come with full disclosure as in ” I did voice acting in this/ the gave me console X and game X for free to test / etc.
You can be a living bar of soap, the pereception that it isn’t 100% clean can still come up easily.
This is why I like reviews by, say, AbusePuppy over Reece. When even the shittiest changes and additions are talked up and sugarcoated it just feels insincere. Hell, I think it’s not unlikely these are sincere opinions, but even so they’re not useful as a review.
I’m definitely not trying to be super negative on Reece specifically, I just really want it to not feel like I’m reading the words of a GW Marketing team.
It’s not why I come here for content. I come here for insight and nuance.
Amen. Everything is not “stupid good”. And some things are stupid bad. Reece doesn’t tell it like it is anymore. I still think he’s a swell cat but yeah everything is sugarcoated now. 🙁
This site was quickly on its way to becoming my favourite wargaming resource. I don’t remember the exact point but something changed during 7th already then it started to feel more like White Dwarf online.
And yet, here you remain.
You just can’t quite us! =P
But, you know what, I will start saying everything sucks so that you can feel like we’re keeping it real. 😉
I’ll lose my job and will have to be the depressed panda if I stop yelling against the dark.
Reece is a great guy, but I agree that since joining the GW 8th team a lot of the reviews have seemed more like GW marketing pamphlets….
I miss ITC reviews giving competitive insights and calling out GW when they made mistakes.
We still give competitive insights, haha. That never stopped.
And what mistake specifically have I not called out? I feel like when things are too good or too weak I still call it out. I can’t think of a time when I have not? The only thing people bust my balls about now in that regard is I say certain armies are good and folks disagree but that has always been the case.
But, all that said, I appreciate your compliment.
There are multiple issues with chapter approved where changes are objectively bad (Dakka Dakka Dakka) or even irrelevant (wych warlord trait), but the review still acts as if they’re good… It might not be your intention, but the reviews lately come across as a sales pitch, not a review. They say that each unit is great, and then has a link to go buy them. I get that you run a business, but everything can’t be good, and a review should say which units are bad too.
I guess what some consider mistakes could be intended, so that’s up to opinion. I’ll even admit that you, with your knowledge from playtesting, likely have a better understanding of what is actually a mistake, but can you honestly tell me that wych cults getting a warlord trait that a succubus can’t use isn’t a mistake? How about Cawl going down in points?
Please don’t take this as an attack. I really do enjoy what you do here and think you’ve done a lot for the hobby. I’m just being honest.
After reading more of the comments here, I’d like to apologize a bit. I don’t mean to imply that you’re motivated by greed or being dishonest. You’re probably right that being a play tester means that by the time you write a review, the initial emotional response is long past.
I think your overall excited tone can make it seem like a marketing pitch, even if it’s not intended that way. Maybe give units some ratings? There was an excellent series on the Tyranid index where each unit had a rating out of 100, and that could show that while many things were very good, some were better than others.
I totally feel you on this one though i mean just read the tau section. He makes it sound like the stratagem is so great for the tau which it is that really is the only real usable update but it honestly isn’t that great plus those warlord traits are pretty trash for Tau. Plus the relic was so terrible he didn’t even bring that up in the review.
Well WinterSEO has called out GW on plenty of things and he still keeps getting review copies. So… Reece wants to sell more books, I guess… Yay money.
Seriously? That is such d*ckhead thing to say
Lol, please do not guess at my motivations and assume they are based in greed. It is frankly insulting.
Is it so hard to believe that I like the game right now? I am honest in reviews, you may disagree with me, but that neither makes me wrong nor does it make me greedy.
Yeah, it’s more plausible to assume you are just too incompetent to understand what is good and what is bad.
Remember guys, never attribute to malice what could be easily explained by stupidity.
OK dude, I have extraordinarily thick skin, but please refrain from insults like this. They are not productive and childish. If you would like to contribute to this discussion, do so, but please cut that kind of talk.
It was more to poke fun. There is no money to be made in 40k… If you’re not GW that is. I thought everyone knew that
Yeah, not a lot of money to be made. It just came across as insulting our integrity which is one of the only things that really gets under my skin. But, if it was just a joke, all good.
i take everything Reece says with a grain of salt because now he has an official GW connection and they(GW) prolly wouldnt want to keep their relationship with the ITC guys if guys like Reece were trashing them every day the way people like abuse puppy can because he has no affiliation with GW.
With that being said, i fucking hate the toxic atmosphere the negative nancy’s around here foster and its refreshing to have some positive takes mixed in aswell. To take some of the commentators on here at face value you have 2 unit types in each army, good or trash, and thats not the case.
Yea these forums are becoming saltier and saltier by the day. Rvd1ofakind gives his super negative 10000 word opus on why everything is s**t and the whole comments section becomes this miserable pit of despair
I ❤️ Reece, and I like his positivity
The guy is a credit to the gaming community ??
But yeah when it comes to actual reviews I tend to shop elsewhere ?
Eh, no big deal. I know people are hanging this sell out sign on me but I am under no obligation to say anything, or spin things, etc. I give my honest opinions, and I think the disconnect comes from the fact that we’ve been playing this stuff for a while and so i skip the initial emotional reaction. In ye old days my reviews were probably more in alignment with what the general competitive public thought about new stuff but think back to all the times you thought something was too good or too bad but with experience it actually fell somewhere in between? Happened to me all the time. By the time I review stuff now, I have been playing it for quite some time so my opinion is different. I try to stay positive, but honest as well. Take them for what you will.
Yeah, that kills me, too. Units are not just broken or garbage, it is so silly to see things that way. Some are not that great for sure, and some are too good, definitely. But those are the exceptions to the rule. Most units are just generally good.
I suppose it all comes down to perspective. And, I understand the grain of salt from yours, totally, but FWIW neither or nor Frankie are obligated to say anything or what have you. There are things we can’t say due to our NDAs or course, but GW doesn’t tell or even ask us what to say in regards to opinion. I just am genuinely stoked with the game right now and it shows in the way I talk about things.
How the hell did Orks get shafted, lol? They got points drops, a cool Relic, two new stratagems and a Warlord trait. They only gained stuff, hahaha, you are are crazy cynical if you get handed benefits and call it getting shafted.
Go talk to the factions who got nothing, lol, cry on their should about you getting bonuses and points drops and see how well that goes over, haha.
Because the DakkaDakka stratagem is so bad using it will actually damage you.
Using a command reroll for a wound roll cost you 1CP and grant you a bigger mathemacal benefit than using DakkaDakka. And this is true in literally every case.
So if you are using Dakkadakka you are actually spending more CP for a lesser benefit that you could already have.
Of course I don’t really expect you to understand that.
The smugness is only making you look like a jerk, my friend. If you want to actually persuade people of anything, including myself, I would recommend taking on a less condescending tone.
The DakkaDakka strat is one you use when you need to deal more hits, not wounds (except when firing on a vehicle with Tank bustas). In which case, you average 2 more hits which is quite obviously better than re-rolling a single wound roll.
So, I don’t see your point, however, if you want to take a stance that it is bad, fine. There is no need to insult me, or anyone else in the process. It neither hurts my feelings nor helps you make a point.
Actually was hoping to get some insight on Mob up from you. How do you like to use it?
Any idea why they put number restrictions for doing it?
Like I said, it is a situational stratagem. It is awesome for KP denial, but some folks don’t rate that as good, which is fine. For example, I use the combine squads strat with my AM almost every game. It makes it easier to get buffs on a single unit from a character, and increases their leadership for Mob Rule.
It’s no Veterans of the Long War, I agree, but it is really good when it comes into play. The number restriction is there I would assume, to avoid getting 120+ model units by combining 30 strong mobs.
Awww but I want 120+ units of boyz. I’ll never do it the same way I was never willing to run green tide but the existence of it makes me happy.?
I can definitely see the use in combining squads for buffs but I feel like it should be more like the AM stratagem and just let us make huge blobs that are horrifically unwieldy.
Yeah, fair enough. Green Tide was cool! This strat is a tool more than a primary strategy and it isn’t the only stratagem they will get, it is one of two they get, now. If Orks players don’t want to use it, fine, they’re no worse off than before. I just think it is silly to say it will never get used or it is worthless, etc. I guarantee Ork players will use them when the situation arises where they are useful.
Honestly, I don’t get Carnac’s point, setting aside the tone.
My biggest frustration running Index Nids was that I built a large store of CP, and could only use them on re-rolls (like Orks, I rarely needed the swing first or “auto-pass” morale.)
This meant I often wasted CP in two ways-
1- having some left over at the end of the game.
2- having CP left over after the game was decided
Having options to spend CP makes you a better army, fullstop.
I am totally underwhelmed by the ork rules, don’t get me wrong (I am stoked for GSC.) But they are only helped by these changes.
Yeah, you probably said it better than me. These are ONLY a benefit. Even if a marginal one from someone’s perspective (although, I am telling you, Mob Up is so much better than it is getting credit for, lol).
Same goes for the forum lol
Didn’t GW just tell us that Caul was too good, an auto-take that crowded out other models, therefore he was getting a points increase?
But then he got a decrease? wth?
gamesworkshop work in mysterious ways 🙂
It shows my name on the comment but i never posted this, what happened here? O.o
Anyway I’m not sure if Cawl is an auto include with stygies VIII being so good right now, but i do agree that if he were to go up or down he should have gone up. Thing is ten points on a model like Cawl wont make any difference whatsoever so the change just feels completely moot.
How does this 1k sons psychic power work for selecting powers?
Do 1k sons lose access to dark hereticus now?
I would guess it’s just an extra option they can take, just like the god specific powers in the codex.
Many of these changes are good. Just because they took it a little farther than you might like just soeaks to bias for models you own. I like my Malanthrope. At 90 points, it was never even sort of a choice whether to take it or not. At 120, I say, “ok I’m not as happy but it’s still great”. At 140, I say, “is this model going to be worth its points in my list?” In some lists it will be and in some lists it won’t be. That is the hallmark of good game design.
Moving some of the most competitive outliers back towards normalcy is good for the game. Don’t be a bad sport just because your unit got hit with the nerf bat. I have 20 unassembled Shadow Spectres still in their boxes from Forge World. Yeah, they’ll probably stay there for a while now which sucks a bit, but it reinforces an important notion – if you just chase the cult of the OP, that will change. Buy models because you like them. Reece has said before: if something seems to be game-breaking OP, don’t go buy 3 of them.
Thank you to Reece and all the associated play testers, who I know were at least a part of making these changes work appropriately.
Nice try using another account, Reece! :p
Anyway, I’d like to see you comment on the 4 Greater Daemons
Big Bird 700->1500 is either “we don’t want this in the games” or “we were so stupid that we messed up by 800 points. By the way, this model at 700 still lost to Astra Militarum in the finals
Big Bloodthirster. Saw next to no competitive play. Huge pts increase. Figures…
Scabby. Had a list with him at 30-20 spots of the tournament sometimes. Why did he get a pts increase then?
Zarakynel – saw literally no play as she was quite bad. Huge pts increase. Well obviously…
All the big stuff pretty much got shooed away from matched play. And all the hyper competitive models are now next to useless almost like a punishment to FW for bad rules.
An’ggrath isn’t bad because he’s overcosted – he’s bad because he is not good against the current meta. If he could split his attacks into 3’s to cleave like Morty can, I would almost certainly take him once the Daemons codex drops to synergize with him. Not at 888, but at 700.
Zarakynel was actually pretty good. I almost brought her to the BFS GT back in October. But that was just to get a reasonable super heavy detachment with Magnus and Morty. That’ll happen once Angron drops 🙂
Scabby was never truly viable, even at his lower points cost. He is just bad vs the current meta.
Big Bird was just silly. 999 would actually probably be a fair points cost, which is why they went over the top – clearly they don’t want these guys to show up at a GT and have them stomp people. Because that’s not fun for attendees. Makes you feel like you brought a butter knife to a gun fight. With the smaller crazy lists, you can get facerolled but for some reason it doesn’t feel quite as bad as seeing a single unkillabke model rampage through your lines. I am, of course, speaking about people on the middle to lower tables for the most part. You’re correct that this was never GT-winning, except for Fennel’s list. Which really was feelsbad to play against.
TLDR: you’re absolutely correct in that the entire intent of these points changes is to shift the big guys away from hyper competitive 40k.
The only one that was a bit of a head scratcher for me was the fire raptor dropping in points. Reece, I’m about to do what I said not to do and assemble mine. Don’t nerf it too soon!
Seriously?
The big stuff is being pushed into Apocalypse games where it belongs. Apoc games use power level which is not changing.
“Big bird” had no place in normal scale games ever. Anyone who kidded themselves that this was a reasonable thing to take in such games and therefore that the good times of auto-wins over most opponents would roll on forever was simply dumb. Sorry if that sounds harsh but really a bit of honesty is needed sometimes. During that time when it was legal in some tournaments and players took advantage of that to win some prizes I hope they feel they got their money’s worth. Now all of them are costed to be so inefficient that you are only going to take it for funsies and maybe to win the painting contest – rather than to go through your weekend inflicting 2.5 hours of un-fun on your opponents on the way to the prize.
I have to agree with you, it is a shame they were priced so low to begin with as it gave people time to get used to fielding them. They’re just not awesome for 2,000pt matched play games, and are pointed with an aim at bigger games which is appropriate, IMO.
Another account? What are you talking about?
The Daemon Lords are apoc style models, they got priced for apoc style games. If you choose to use them or not in a 2k matched play game is up to you.
You make the mistake of assuming everything is being built only for the purpose of competitive play, but that is just not the case. Some things are build with narrative or open play in mind. Not everyone plays the game competitively or looks at it all through the lens of points efficiency.
The other account thing is a joke btw.
I guess I did make that mistake. I genuinely thought every unit could be balanced. Guess I was wrong there then.
Rvd1ofkind get a life man.
Right? What an angry weirdo…
You are very welcome, sir and thanks for the levelheaded reply.
As a harlequin player i am actually disappointed with the stratagem offerings. i have never liked the craftworld/dark smeldar, but i do love me some angry clowns.
The 4+ inv standard save is solid but should be revisited, i honestly think it was a mistake on GW’s part handing it to troupes/skyweavers. I have gotten some absurd millage out of troupes/skyweavers. We should have gotten something like -1 to hit and 5+inv. Getting a 3+ is damn good don’t get me wrong, i will take it. But invulnerable save buffing is not really what we need. Our three biggest boogeyman are auto hitting weapons, mass volume firepower and mortal wound spam are far more detrimental to our game than trying to bully our way up the board or covering up our sloppy play.
This would have been better had it been
1cp, -1 to hit on troupes or skyweaver (jetbike).
1cp, overwatch cannot be taken against target unit.
The deepstrike by another name is a bad joke. Harlequins are masters of the webway. Not the run of the mill smeldar rabble. It should have been 1-3 units at a CP per unit. Not the pedestrian copy paste of the craftworld/dark eldar ability. Lore wise this is a silly cock up.
Looking at the rest of the rumors and lack of rumors
– Deathjester is still over costed, for what it does, playable sure, but a completely wasted opportunity
– The voidweaver still really has no place, problem one, it has an identical profile to our transport, but it is listed as heavy support. Loses the transport utility for a painfully under performing gun suffeting from unreliability thanks to the heavy profile plus the dx shots problem. For a high mobility faction this is a silly problem our rng 24 only helps compound. Sadly i have 4, love the model, but they are collecting dust or being proxies for my additional transports because fusion pistols.
– The haywire canon is still a victim of the move to 8th and the bad translation of blast weapons.
– The caress/kiss point reduction did nothing worth while. It only made the solitaire cheaper, and gave an adventurous clown an excuse to slap one on a troupe master, for s*** n giggles.
– Fusion pistol spam and the neuro disrupter issue has remained ignored.
Side note, shadowseer cost still boggles me when looking at some of the abusive stuff in other factions.
GW really needs to look at limited factions and either give them the tools to,stand alone or just toss them back under the faction bus of a bigger faction. See gray knights.
Harlequins are good. Except against hordes, tankspam, flyers, and smites.
Basically anything that’s good in the meta they’re bad against.
This is just a stop-gap. We’re going to have to wait until we get an actual Harlequin Codex. They may get additional point adjustments then, plus all the other strategies, rules for various masques, etc.
Necrons will still be fighting for the bottom half, guess we will be waiting for a codex to compete
I understand your pain. I can’t even look at my Necrons. The wraiths are really weak with a -1 AP, the single shot heavy destroyers just aren’t enough fire power and my Monoliths keep getting blown off the battlefield by the 1st or 2nd round(and they cost more than Guillimen!).
Yup really disappointed with this release. Great to have warlord traits,etc but the lack of a chapter tactic equivalent and the non-adjustment to the points means for me this book is just not worth buying.
As it says, this is just a holdover until your dex arrives. It isn’t all of what you are getting, just something cool to hold you over until then.
Attention everyone who keep seeing their name on someone else’s post. It’s a bug. That’s it. No one is posting with your name.
YES! The Killchoppa is back! That was always my favorite relic and while not quite as amazing now its still pretty good. Not kill an army of nids by yourself awesome but still awesome.
It is really good, too! I use it all the time.
Reece: sorry for the off-topic post, but please finish off the nid review! You missed the flyers and fortification. Thanks 🙂
You’re right! I got sidetracked but I promise I will do it early next week.
Flyers and Fortifications-
Don’t.
Review Finished 8)
TBH, I can see a use for the fliers with their crazy movement. Not in my list, but I can see it. And having 2 of each…
Lol, it’s not so bleak as all that =)
Okay not sure how you are getting 3++ for a knight. That strat is the same name as the mechanicus one so I believe you will only be able to use it once… target got updated maybe this one won’t allow questor mechanicus? But it could target FW knights I guess.
Ah, no, just a typo. Sorry, will fix!
You can use it on an Atrapos for your 3++ still. Just not on any of the regular GW ones
Awesome, with this update I’m seriously considering switching my brigade of guard to 2 more knights. Battalion of mechanicus, 3 knights in a super heavy with one being the warlord for that sweet plus one attack and huge sword! Exciting! Leaves me 9 CP instead of 15 CP but feels better. Need to figure points might be able to fit a few inquisitors and or assassins in for 1 more CP and psychic defense with some silliness…
When did Frontline Gaming become the frontline of GWs propaganda arm?
Well 40k is literally their business, but what you seem to be implying is that they can’t possibly be enjoying 40k as much as they are, so they must just be saying things to brainwash the ill informed.
Thank you for coming by to tell everyone that they are having fun wrong. Will stop enjoying myself presently.
Lol, I know, right? It’s like, if we don’t say things suck, we’re not being real or something? Sorry, but we are loving the game right now. I am happy to share that enthusiasm and if some folks don’t like it, eh, oh well.
Lol, we are not beholden to GW to present things in a certain light. Is it so hard to imagine that we are actually just very happy with the game and like to present things in a positive light?
But, like I said previously, you are free to see things how you like. No skin off my back. It sort of comes with the territory when people know we are a part of the process, they assume we have to say things or whatever, but we don’t.
Some of these points changes are reasonable, but some of them aren’t. The biggest WTF choice is definitely the revenant Titan going up by 800 points. It was pretty bad at 1200 and it literally unplayable at 2000. Im pretty sure that they simply didn’t want these huge units in matched play, but why not just say that? Arbitrarily raising their points to 2000 so they can’t be used in 2000 point games is silly.
Then having a phantom at what, 2,300 points?
Where is Yannari? I didn’t see the faction update for them
They are not in CA, not every faction gets attention in it.
That is a little disappointing 🙁
Hopefully Ynnari will get some positive attentions (please no more nerfs T_T) in the near future.
I had to check the url at the top of my screen because I thought I was I was reading the Bols comment section.
Disagree. Argue the math. Site examples based on tournament play. Explain why you think Reece is wrong – great – all good, keep it up. That’s the dialogue that will help us all understand and play the game better…but this conspiracy theory stuff about Reece selling out and towing GWs line is crap and it is lazy and tired. It helps nothing.
Thank you. Yeah, strange right? I am under no obligation to say anything. I mindfully try to be more positive, for sure. But that hardly compromises my integrity. I am happy to admit when I am wrong, no issues at all with that. But just because someone disagrees with my opinion doesn’t mean I am selling out or something, lol. It just means we see something differently.
I mean, I kind of get it, as we’re known to be associated with GW people jump to that conclusion but it simply isn’t true. The best part for me though, lol, is when I present options for doing things differently as ways to play “bad” units, and then say, see, it works! And people wave their hand, saying it is an exception to the rule and doesn’t count. Lol. Some folks just cannot divorce themselves from their preconceived notions.
It’s odd and I don’t know if most people don’t play that much so theoryhammer is the game for them or something? But I hope you keep it up. I did pretty well and had a blast at LVO 2015 using an all scout list that I basically stole from you. The positivity and exploration of alternate choices is why I come here.
THANK YOU! I was having the same thoughts as I was reading these comments. Usually I enjoy reading them, because this website seems to be one of the only places on the internet where I can read, and sometimes engage in, an intelligent conversation on the hobby. Disagreeing is fine, and the discussion is usually pretty civil on here. I’ve never seen this level of salt and conspiracy mongering on this site! If I wanted that, I’d go to Spikey Bits or BoLS! Here’s hoping this doesn’t become a trend going forward, because I actually enjoy this site not succumbing to the toxicity of so many others.
I think people are just venting.
The DE “review” sounds like an ad.
The WL traits are extremely meh, see archite glaive.
The pistol is just OK if its free or close to it.
No way in holy hell 20 DSing kabalites are going to earn their pts before being easily vaporized next turn.
Well, lol, ok. Haha, you got new rules, you got relics, you got stratagems. Poor you.
And yeah, you are right, there is no way the Warriors coming have done anything and I am imagining the many games Frankie and I have done it, lol. You got me.
Seeing some folks actually get upset about gaining bonuses for their army is bizarre. Would it have been better to get nothing?
I would honestly love to see a batrep where you use units of 20 DSing kabalites to great effect.
You could teach me and the Dark City crew something that the majority of us are just not seeing.
Thankyou.
Is this sour grapes or are you being serious? Sounds like you’re being a bit rude but I want to give you the benefit of the doubt….
Either way, look, if you don’t like what you got, fair enough. That is your prerogative. But if you stake a step back and look at this objectively, you only gained benefits. The army is better than it was. You may wish it was something else, or something more powerful or whatever, which is fine, but getting a boost for your faction and then acting as if it were a detriment is a bit lame, which I hope you can see.
Again, go talk to the players that didn’t get anything, lol. They have a reason to feel put off at this stage, what you got seems great from their point of view.
I try not to talk to Tau players. They have small hands. And they smell like cabbage.
Honestly, yes, he probably could. The Dark City is a.great forum, but it’s ridiculously arrogant to assume that it has collectively come up with every possible devent combo. Sticking to one place and not trying new things is called an echo chamber, and it’s a real problem in 40k communities right now. People need to get out of their mental ruts and think outside the box.
Yeah, that was weird. I’m like, hey, Frankie–a dedicated Dark Eldar player–has used this stuff on me and it is actually good! Don’t be upset!
This dude: you’re wrong, and I say this with no actual experience of using them…
Me: lol, what?
The cognitive dissonance defies my ability to actually engage in conversation any further at that point.
There is an opportunity cost though. To get bad rules is worse than none, because at least with none you have the chance of getting the good ones later.
Dude…..lolololol.
No. You are being ridiculous. I am sorry, but that is an absolutely absurd statement, hahahaha. Oh my goodness.
Sorry to sound harsh, but come on. If you got these now or later what difference does it make? Better to get them now. And they’re not objectively bad, you may feel they are, but that does not make it so. Deep Strike is AMAZING, lol.
Oh brother, well, whatever. Sounds like some serious Sour Grapes to me, but hey. Play without them if you like, but sheesh, this is like seeing a kid get a birthday present and then throw a tantrum because he wanted the Red Power Ranger but got the Green one.
I it’s PTSD from the old GW. If you were a Xenos player and for a lame codex it would be four years minimum before you had it addressed. Maybe ten.
Old trauma does hard.
Fair enough, it’s just hard to see people getting bonuses and saying it’s them getting boned, haha. Need a little perspective here is all.
Talk to text kicked my ass, apologies.
To be fair, it isn’t free. We’re paying good money for it so it should be good.
To be fair, it’s more like the kid was playing with a power ranger, then Hasbro told him he was only allowed to play him with a new set of accessories he needs to buy.
He’s not thrilled he has new, possibly bad accessories instead of having the none he had before. Bad can absolutely be worse than nothing.
Le sigh. I honestly don’t know how to reply to this, lol. You guys are claiming things are bad without having tried them, we tell you from experience they are actually quite useful, and then you guys tell us we’re wrong….without having tried them. And that you would rather have gotten nothing at all….Lol.
You must see how silly your position in this is. That is seriously ridiculous and absolutely sounds like a kid’s tantrum.
Oh boy! Sure glad they dealt with the Eldar problem before it got out of hand. Wouldn’t want them actually placing at a tournament…
“Blood of Kittens: 8th Edition Top Army List Compendium”
A lot of curdled milk in this comments section. When this plays out I think many people will wish they didn’t make these ridiculous and baseless accusations simply because GW didn’t make changes according to their personal wishes.
This is an asumption I see a lot and yet in over 20 years, no matter how salty I got GW never failed to somehow do something worse than what I thought would happen. And ever since AoS I know it actualy is outside of the scope of my imagination how nuts they can get.
I think its a little too easy to dismiss negativity as just coming from trolls or haters. GW did get a lot right this edition but sone people have still had the rug pulled out from under them regarding specific units/rules/factions/builds. in this hobby people spend a lot of money time and effort to build their armies. So when something is invalidated by a change (needed or not) that does feel pretty crap, so people have a right to be angry.
Haters is a pretty silly word to start with. They wouldn’t be customers. Or at least a seriously strange minority. Unless someone completly quit and has no more Investment in the game. In which case they wouldn’t get worked up over this cause it doesn’t concern them.
Do you keep investing in the game? Are you currently buying new armies and playing it with friends?
’cause there is some sort of subscription service and the armies people already built over years don’t count as a reason for wanting the game to be good?
You didn’t answer my question. Do you still play this game? Do you play it with friends or even competitively?
It doesn’t really matter if you just have an army you like and don’t feel like buying more, but do you play the game you are so passionate about?
It doesn’t sound like you do based on your comments. If you do not why are so spending so much of your time on forums exclusively about this game? Why don’t you do something that makes you happy?
Maybe ’cause you aren’t the gatekeeper of investment and I’m not throwing my hobby at your feet to be judged. How many armies of what size and monthly expenditure would I have to be building to qualify? How many themed terrain projects to match them? How many of them have to be game ready and played ride now and does hoping they’ll actually have a good game to play once they are done count?
’cause in my experience gatekeeper types like to move the goalposts after they know how much you’re doing.
This is odd. If you play this game why do you keep talking about buying models regularly? It was a point I conceded as superfluous. Just answer the question. Do you play Warhammer 40k regularly with friends or competitively?
You keep making me think you do not. If you don’t play the game and get so angry in these comments then that would make me very sad.
Suppose you could lie to me but I would at least like an answer. You are a puzzle.
Reece, Succubuses can’t use their own Wych Cult warlord power. I think that’s a pretty glaring oversight. Should it be fixed?
How can she not use it? I am not seeing this. Are you referring to the Archite blade being -1 to hit? If so you give her a different melee weapon to utilize it.
If there is some sort of mistake, let me know and I can pass it up the food chain but I am not seeing it.
Reecius, please answer this because I am legitimately baffled.
Why does the archite glaive still give a -1 to hit at all? Is there a reason that a s+2(on a S3 model) ap-3 D1 was thought to be powerful enough that it gets the same drawback an ork power klaw or a power fist does?
The problem that me and many others are having is that in order to utilize the Succubus warlord trait, you sacrifice fun – every unit and their dog has an agonizer in the DE codex. The archite glaive is the cool unique such weapon, but you can’t use it effectively with your succubus and the warlord trait anymore at all.
In addition, its impossible to make a pumped up such cult HQ , since the agonizer replaces the splinter pistol, meaning that your succubus can’t get parasites kiss…
It just all seems like a big oversight – me (and many of the people at the dark city) just can’t believe that it isn’t, since an archite glaive is a strong but far far far from warranting a -1 to hit, especially since the succubus has only 4 attacks to begin with. It just seems to us that the trait was designed either maliciously (so that the loadout HAS to match the actual model that’s being made… hooray!) Or it was an oversight.
I’m still inclined to believe the latter, but I mean you have to see the problem here, yeah?
Yeah, I feel you on that. I actually don’t know why they gave the weapon that profile, honestly, but they did. I agree that it would be cool to use the Glaive instead. And yes, correct that you wouldn’t be able to get the pistol which is annoying if you want to make a Succubus melee character. You could give the Trait to Lelith who makes great use of it, and then the Pistol to another character.
I think the main take away is that this isn’t all you are going to get, this is just what you got for now. I think that is why it is so hard for me to understand the perspective of some people who are upset as I know all of the truly awesome stuff heading your way, this is just GW saying: thank you for being patient, here’s some cool goodies to hold you over until you get your codex.
Just a quick question: I have a detachment of Craftworlds + a detachment of Harlequins. Will I be able to use Webway stratagems on both? Or just once? I’m guessing this depends on whether the stratagems have the same name?
Each detachment can use their own strats so long as they fulfill the requirements for it. In that case as it has the same name, I am actually not certain but can try and find out for you.
Their current stance is that if it has the same name then it’s the same ability. See their FAQ on the Nurgle psychic power from the CSM codex.
Good catch! I had forgotten about that. Too many dang rules floating through my noggin sometimes.
Meanwhile, gw will be loosing out significantly in gk sales and for good reasons.
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341686-ca-gk-points-changes/
I’m gonna be straight with you here. Warhammer 40k is the biggest gaming clusterfuck I have ever witnessed.
I get that GW is trying but it’s hair on fire, yakkity sax playing in the background comical ineptitude sort of try and this point. I mean why do we even have printed books at this point? They’re useless. Hell the Guard book has been turned upside down twice now. I am done with this damn game until at least things settle down (if they ever do).
Couldn’t agree more. I could live with all of this if it were a community wide beta test for a reboot of the game system not a product sold in fancy premium priced books. That all include invalid points already. A guard player needs his own book, the Forge World one and the Index and somehow none of them include a valid list. How can a game of this size somehow not have an army builder app to address this?
And to add to the previous post I want to add that I like and respect what Reece and the FLG guys have done for the game but GW has taken all of that and fumbled the ball at the goal line. Yes things needed changing but good grief it is a mess how it has been implemented.
The game needed an army builder app yesterday to consolidate all of the rules changes (and keep the top 8 of every tournament from being an illegal list fiasco) and the changes themselves needed to be WAY less knee jerk than what we’ve seen and much more proactive in terms of making bad units useful. Come on, enough with the feels bad. Give people something to be happy about along with all the overzealous nerfing.
They have buffed almost all the AdMech units. However the buffs seem really tame(5 pts, 10 pts). But the nerfs seem really huge(50 pts, 500 pts, 800pts)
Oh I agree and that’s at least part of what I’m trying to say. There are a whole lot of major “you can’t use this any more” type feel bads and considerably less “tweak around the margins” feel goods type changes. There are a LOT of things that already had uncompetitive pricing that could have been adjusted to make competitive and it just seemed really weird what they picked to change and what didn’t change.
Guard for example did need some things to be adjusted to be more expensive like the primaris psyker but then you have other things like the Leman Russ demolisher cannon that are still “lol what” expensive.
I understand your frustration, but I think you are overreacting a bit. The army builder app is inbound and going forward, changes will be handled in a measured way. Things are just a bit chaotic right now due to timing.
To help you get the idea of where I’m coming from:
First, I’m sarcastic as all get out. Which never translates well to text.
Second, What does this book change in the meta?
It changed points and added stuff for the codex-less armies. If you don’t own any of those armies:
– all you get it the pts changes
There were no bug rules changes that we were not aware of. Obviously I haven’t read the book, but if the review is anything to go by, the big issues were not adressed directly. Some have been adressed through points. However if the past is anything to go by, people will just jump on to the next best thing.
Spamming Malefic Lords? Spamming Herlads
Spamming Conscripts/Brimstones? Spamming Infantry/Cultists
Some soup offenders were nerfed? The next best ones will be taken instead.
The rules needed to be adressed:
– Supreme command and Super Heavy detachments need to be removed from matched play.
– Imperium, Chaos keywords need to be removed from matched play.
– Damage needs to spread(at least somewhat. divided by 2?) like Mortal wounds so anti-tank weapons could do something to hordes.
– Smite needs a cap. 3 per turn?
– Armour saves need to be reevaluated. Almost anything bellow 6 pts should get an increase in pts. 1w 3+ should be only 2-4 pts better than 1w 6+ and not 8pts better.
Please do tell if I’m missing anything. What am I getting in this book as a competitive AdMech/Daemons player?
Points changes. That’s it?
Non-matched play doesn’t matter to me. All matched play changes (Except character tweak) were revealed before: first turn, flyers..
So I am supposed to pay a full price for a book that has ONE page of content relavant to me(if you group admech and daemons changes into 1 page)?
The content of your arguments may/may not be valid. But in nearly every post you come across as a total a-hole. And being rude and insulting the flg team as spineless money-grubbers? Gtfo of here man
It was sarcasm. I do not think he just does it for the money… Like I said. I’ll /s every joke/sarcasting thing I see from now on. Where did I insult them btw?
That’s probably enough said, but just think about what you’re posting before you hit the submit button. You are really starting to tick some people off. This is supposed to be a friendly forum for a fun game, so let’s not go around just making enemies for the sake of it
Yeah probably I should think more. However I quite perturbed one might say.
*I was quite
I don’t know what is the logical reason about Tau didn’t get the point change.
But at least they should reduce the riptide cost. :sad panda:
our pandas are angry here, not sad
Codex coming sooner than people think.
I think a much more elegant fix to smite spam would have been, for matched play, any psyker with a base point cost less than X (40? 45?) their smites only deal 1 mortal wound. Fixed. At that point I don’t think any of the psykers need points adjustments.
Likely either weapons AP need to be adjusted or units with good saves need a discount because as it stands you’re still better off with more cheap bodies than fewer expensive bodies (though smite change would help this).
Feel free to list me all those <45 psykers. <70 maybe…
Sorry to add to the salt, but here I go.
I feel let down. By GW and by Reece. For weeks (months?) I’ve been coming to the comment section and repeatedly seen Reece saying things along the lines of “Don’t worry, CA is coming soon to change things for the better”. Well, that’s true, technically. I suppose it’s mainly my fault for putting more stock into those vague words than I should have. Yes, orks, tau, necrons, etc. have at least 1 new warlord trait, relic, and stratagem each. But the magnitude of the changes are along the lines of going from a 3 to a 4, and still trying to compete against all the 8s, 9s, and 10s.
There were plenty of serious issues, both points-wise and rules-wise, that I feel were either not addressed or massively overcorrected. I don’t know what goes on at the rules writing section of GW, but it does boggle the mind seeing some of the results. It also makes me wonder how long some of these changes have been in place due to printing schedules, and unable to be affected properly by community feedback.
Well, sorry if you feel let down, but, try to put yourself in my shoes. I can’t say much, but I know a positive is inbound and if it got oversold a bit that was unintentional.
The codexes are coming as possible, everyone is doing everything they can to get you up to speed but I hope you can understand that they can’t all come out at once.
And I know the community wants input on rules and such, and they do to an extent, but I mean, haha, read some of the comments here and you can understand why that is a two edged sword.
Make Ynnari great again! On a side note, will FW units get updated profiles at all? Still hoping on the Wraithseer becoming a competitive option…
Reece
That Tau stuff there isn’t half bad though.
Montka trait is really good on Coldstars, Longstrike, or Fireblades.
Kauyon is kinda bad though
You are correct, I misspoke, I meant to say the factions that didn’t get anything. Sorry for the confusion.
h… not half bad is a little generous, they’re still pretty underwhelming. They’re something and they’re free.
The one strategem is definitely needed, but it only partially alleviates the flawed markerlight system.
The relic is basically one free command point reroll and statistcally 1-2 extra CPs. So you could see it as 2-3 free CPs for your army but that’s still a little underwhelming compared to some of the excellent relics other factions got.
The traits are pretty situational, and montka can be pretty much replaced by 3 markerlights.
Im pretty disappointed, and i do feel like the CA benefits for tau don’t really address any of the systematic issues the faction has. Unfortunately, short of a radical overhaul in the codex (which based on previous codexes seems increasingly unlikely) i don’t think anything is going to fix that
What the heck is going on with the Astra Militarium?!? It has been 2 months since the book has been released and the thing has been radically changing the entire time.
There has no time for any real data to be gathered on the Codex, so I have to believe that all of these changes were planned before the Codex was even released.
I am trying to get back into 40k after dropping out during 5th edition. But, I have actually already given up on trying to collect guard (and set my eyes on Tyranids). But I have “stage-fright” and can’t seem to pull the trigger on buying my needed models (since the rules/point values will most likely be changing several times).
My gut feeling is that GW puts these books out with ridiculous point values and has the FAQs written before the hard copies hit the streets. Then they make you an ahole for trying to buy your models, especially the ones that are going to double in points cost (or have their rules nerfed).
How is this the most balanced edition, when the codex cannot last 2 months in the public without radical changes? The Old GW would make you wait 10 years before you would get any changes. But what is this new paradigm of “you are an idiot for buying a hardbound book, since we have built-in plans to make it invalid ASAP”?
Yeah. Im in “hybernate for a year or two, till they got it out of their System” mode. Just look at this mess, books will not sell at all a year later since nothing in them will still be correct. I kinda already expect another hard reboot or something utterly bonkers once the wheels come off on this clown car of an edition.
.
When will this hibernation start? Will you continue to comment on 40k articles even while in suspended animation?
Lol, of course not! haha
The AM book is still really strong and internal balance is a lot better now, allowing for more viable builds, in my opinion. I disagree with some of the changes, but overall i am glad they are doing frequent faq’s/adjustments.
How much consumer feedback/ playtesting have been involved in creating those changes?
You want me to believe that in 2 months the consumers have been banging away and have provided insight into the great balance of the Astra Militarium Codex?
I see 2 realistic scenarios here.
1) GW is scared of the Internet Mob and make sweeping changes based on them braying over the web.
2) GW had these changes already baked into the cake and they are playing mind-games by post the changes shortly after allowing the initial rush of buying miniatures.
Both are bad.
Both of your scenarios are inaccurate. The answer is actually quite simple, people just miss it (as did I prior to this) because it has to do with the actual processes of business side of GW and people online only look at it from the more theoretical aspect of the rules.
I’m in the same boat. Returning Guard player from 5th and I feel like I’ve had the rug pulled out from under me based entirely on griping on the internet. The guy who Warzone Atlanta didn’t even use conscripts and I think only had something like two Primaris Psykers so I’m incredibly dubious over most of these changes.
The results of a single tournament nor only complaints online determine these changes, it is a lot more involved than that, but, I could see from your perspective how it could feel that way. FWIW, it is not that simple or arbitrary.
wow, there is a lot of hate in this comment section. Sure not everything in here is great but its more then some had before so I feel like its good to have even if there are better stuff out there but I guess that makes me a Front Line fanboy or something
Yeah, I could at least understand it during 7th, but 8th is the best 40K has been for so long and very popular because of it, certainly not a perfect version of itself yet but far closer than previous. But the over the top wailing is worse than ever. Pointing out shortfalls is fine but so much of this is just forcing negatives out of nothing.
Honestly guys, without any of the “Oh you’re just a GW lover/hater” nonsense I wish I could see what you see. I mean I know there have been people defending GW even as 7th had crashed and was busy trying to drill itself to the earth’s core but that really is just the fraction of fans that will stay loyal no matter what. Here though I’m not sure what is going on. I mean yeah the game is better, mostly because it had been so bad it almost broke itself. And yeah the launch isn’t the worst I’ve seen because I’ve seen the AoS launch. But those aren’t just low bars, those are more like holes in the ground.
How is a full color hardcover book that is invalidated basicaly at release “nothing”? I would absolutely understand this if we were in some sort of testing phase and these were pdf files released each month, while everyone jumps on and GW is collecting as giant pile of data to actualy build the finished product out of this.
But it isn’t. It is premium priced product and if I had to explain to a new player how to figure out how to build a legal army I’d probably fail and even if I didn’t I would have lost him before I’m half done explaining.
Points are the only thing that changed though. Basically, none of the rules changed if the review is anything to go by. Not sure how that invalidates datasheets, warlord traits, stratagems, basic rules, chapter tactics etc…
However I do think that carrying 5 books + FAQs is stupid. Especially after the “less books than 7th” promise
Commissar rule.
Except you’d only have both the index and the codex if you had options in the index that aren’t in the codex which most don’t (assuming you have a codex), you don’t need the rulebook as the base rules are available as a free download and most lists will only need 1 or 2 FW units if any so why not just take a picture on your phone, or write then out if you need to save space? And FAQs are a sheet or two off paper or a few download.
7th had multiple base game expansions, campaigns with new units and Forge World stuff across multiple different books.
I agree it’s an issue, GW should have just said no more index stuff if it’s not in the codex in matched play, and FW stuff being separate is a consistent oddity, but it’s not as big of an issue as people make out.
Hopefully there’s an AoS style app and list builder
They’ve already announced the list building app is in the works.
There are models in the index that aren’t in the codex. Yes, you can still use them. Which leaves:
Rulebook
Index
FW Index
Codex
Chapter Approved
7 FAQs in total.
Simply put, it IS more than 7th.
That’s still less than 7th. And nobody needs to bring or use all of those all at once unless you’re deliberately trying to. You’re extrapolating to absurd degree and ignoring what I said.
I don’t see what you see either. The game’s quality is opinion but it’s not seeing a surge in popularity for nothing, saying that it’s generally good I don’t think is a controversial statement.
As for the books being invalidated, they’re not. That’s just not true. Even the Guard book that people say is irrelevant now has only had 2-3 major things changed in any meaningful way, 99% of it is exactly as printed or the FAQs are just reaffirming what the rule means (like the Leman Russ move double shoot one).
Also if you’re introducing a brand new player by giving them every scrap of info for the competitive format then you’re missing the point. I wasn’t introduced to X-wing with an extensive list of altered cards or to MtG by being told the difference between Standard and Modern. The FAQs and the like are there for the competitive environment, that’s it. You introduce a player by saying take what you want, add the power level together and I’ll match it. Optional complexities come later.
There’s issues for sure, 40K needs an AoS style unified app ASAP, the character rule here is a side step, Index only forces being worse than codex forces is inevitable but understandably annoying. But none of that takes away from the fact that for me I’m having a ton of fun playing the game.
You might look into the Astra Militarum FAQ because it changed a LOT more than Commisars.
I play Guard.
FAQ changes that weren’t clarifications were the Commissar change, Tallarn Ambush and Dagger of Tu’Sakh.
Not exactly extensive.
Yeah, the claims of “my army is now unplayable!” are such hyperbole, lol. I understand being upset that your units got nerfed but they are now more fair respective to the rest of the game. The Commissar nerf was a bit harsh but it doesn’t spell the death of conscripts. I still use them even at 4pts per model, I just use 1 unit, not an army of them, FWIW.
And take cover stratagem being limited to only astra militarum infantry (big change), and a change to Ogryn Bodyguards, and send in the next wave , and changes to aerial spotter. And the ambush change was really multiple changes, enough to really shake up how you could build a Tallarn list.
Ok, I’ll give you the first try. Send in the next wave was a clarification as the rules state new units cost points. Ambush was altered, that’s it. Aerial spotter clarified that the words Basilisk and wyvern actually meant Basilisk and when for those that needed it apparently. And the Ogryn bodyguard clarified that you can’t infinitely bounce wounds between multiple bodyguards, because again some people thought that that needed clarification.
So 5 substantial changes (or 8 if we count the ones you listed) from the about 100 rules entries in the codex.
And the book’s invalid?
I’ll give you the first *two*
Sorry, not try
And Wyvern* not when
I should learn to type on a phone with my time really 😛
I’m not gonna argue minutia over what change is an actual change in who’s opinion but let’s get to that point of the game having a surge in popularity. It is 40k, the biggest franchise in wargaming and it just returned from being an unplayable mess. With all the hype it could get from claiming this time it is playtested, balanced, etc. With people respected in the community (Which they had to outsource ’cause GW isn’t) speaking out for it.
Of course, the game is popular. But the hype isn’t going to carry it long term and the people having issues here are just the first sign of trouble. No one here complains because they want the game to be bad. We all have way too much investment in it, time and money wise. They are still racing from their great start but that doesn’t mean the wheels won’t come of if the damn cart isn’t build sturdy enough.
I think we just fundamentally disagree, hype alone wouldn’t have carried it this high or even this far particularly as it was coming out of a big dip. And those respected people speaking out in the community aren’t stupid l, they haven’t been hoodwinked, they like the game, and I don’t think getting the community involved hurts.
There’s issues for sure, but they’re fixable and blown out of proportion massively by a small number of people because they care so much.
We’re looking at the same thing and seeing something completely different. We’re not going to change that.
Fair enough. In the end that’s pretty much the whole point I had. I can’t fathom what you see in it and that goes both ways.
And seeing how GW discussions usually go I don’t think it’ll change no matter how it turns out.
Ytook, you act like money is no issue to you and that you have a vast IG model collection. As someone who is trying to get back into the game and has a current model collection that is unplayable, I need to buy models before I can play. The army in my virtual shopping cart has been made invalid multiple times. Do you want me to believe that all of these changes had not been decided prior to the codex being released?
I get it, you do not identify with former players who are excited about 8th edition, but who can’t build a list and buy models, paint them, and get them to the table before their list is outlawed.
You seem really upset, dude. Like, more than is warranted by this. I think the fundamental disconnect is that we are prepared for all of this, know the reasons why (even if we don’t always agree) and so have moved past the shock stage to the already over it and learned to play around it stage when things hit. Knowing why things are done makes a big difference.
The game rocks right now, you may not like aspects of it, which is fine and your prerogative, but objectively it is massively popular right now. 8th is hitting the right notes and the game is healthier than it has ever been. That is not my opinion, that is fact.
I am not telling you what to feel about it, that is up to you, but I do think you are overreacting a bit. The AM book was not invalidated at all. There were some changes, some of them big, I agree, and some points adjustments but again, the books take a long time to prepare and bring to market. The changes you get occurred between then and release in an attempt to get in front of any issues and correct them ASAP. You can count on an FAQ for a Dex and then updates in CA, as GW has stated. It just so happens all of those things hapenned close together this year due to the rapid release schedule, going forward it will be a much more predictable and stable pattern.
Am I over-reacting? Maybe. And maybe I identify with the folks who are getting trolled by GW into buy product that won’t see the table. When a video game makes changes after they have sent the gold master to manufacturing, they post a “day 1 patch.” They don’t sit on it for 2 months, or dribble it out over that time. I can tell you objectively, that a world-wide release of a video game is much more difficult then the release of a codex.
I feel like I am being played by GW. When all of the codex specific Internet content is pumping out, the stuff they are covering is in a highly fluid state (which isn’t the content creators fault).
This is the pattern I am being fed.
1) Start to absorb all of the Internet material about an upcoming codex.
2) Get excited, start to tinker on a list.
3) Scrounge up $600 to buy some models
4) Get models, clean, prep, and start to paint.
5) Find out over the next month that you still can’t play and need to come up with another $200 to make the army list valid again.
6) Pray that Darth Vader doesn’t alter the deal any further..
When you play against an opponent who has a completely painted army, you are basically engaging with someone who went on a 4-5 month “art project.” Which is a great feeling and I miss it. But this process is blowing holes in GWs credibility.
Is the public playtesting that happens over the first two months of a codex release having any impact on GW? Or are all of these changes already baked into the cake prior to the codex dropping?
Ok, I agree with you that I am venting. I apologize for doing that on your site. None of my commentary is going to increase your sales. I should of put vented this out over at DakkaDakka or some place else that isn’t isn’t going to negatively effect anyone’s livelihood.
Thank you for all of your good work. You are doing great and are on the top of your game.
All good, bro. I understand the frustrations and thanks for extending the olive branch. You are welcome here any time.
Yeah, clearly you are a sell out under my mind control! Muahaha!
Pretty shocked and appalled at all the people on here that are just toxic. These are some cool new options for armies, why is everyone giving FLG a hard time for spinning this stuff in a positive light? Y’all are trolls; get back into the basement.
This is by far the healthiest the game has been in a very, very long time.
Yeah, folks are just venting. All this change is wearing on some folks, but they are being a bit OTT, I agree.
Is it too much to ask to have all of these Astra Militarium changes to of been in the book that was released two months ago?!
Obviously that would have been better, but it wasn’t possible.
It is annoying, I agree 100%, but it came out the way it did.
Sorry if it frustrates you, I understand your position, but it will settle down.
I would settle for my digital codex getting updated, lol!
So roughly six months in and the game is already in the state that 3rd edition was in after 4+ years and 7th was in right before 8th was released. A completely impenetrable, jumbled, mess of rules, FAQs and errata. How do you even tell a new player how to build an army. For goodness sake there is a FLOW CHART on how to figure out how to build an army. A FLOW CHART. How can you recommend a game to someone that needs a flow chart just to tell how to put a valid army together?
Nobody starting out in the game needs the flowchart – you buy models and build them according to the codex which strangely enough has all the options in the kit.
In principle the flowchart is for people with old models they still want to use. I don’t think you should really need the flowchart for that if you stick with PL which is just fine for most games.
Of course we all know it is really for min-maxing tournament players to bring some marginally more efficient build. Given the apparent inability of even so-called top players to produce legal lists I really think TOs should do them all a favour and just ban any sort of complexity like this. it is for their own good.
In 3 weeks you might ostensibly need a codex plus Chapter Approved plus a FAQ (and eventually, a Chapter Approved FAQ?)
It’s a weakness of this edition, no question. Personally, I hope they find some way to deal with it, but it isn’t ruining my experiences.
They’ve already discussed the format rolling forward. It is going to be very systematic and predictable. Should alleviate this current angst.
The flow chart is only for using index units, you don’t have to have it. The new rules support existing models, the flow chart is a way for veterans to use models they already own. That is benefit to those player it applies to.
The above two posts perfectly sum up there we are now. Some still riding the hype wave, some already crashed from it.
Btw, who are you and why do you have an avatar? :p
On an unrelated note, why isn’t my avatar a giant salt shaker yet
It should be, lol.
I dunno? I just hit the keyboard with clumsy pandapaws till thing happen?
Yeah, it’s the same thing again:
Did GW just do their best to improve the game?
If yes, there will be haters.
If no, there will be haters.
“Did his best” is what your employer writes about you if you failed at everything.
GW is not some toddler we look at proudly for managing to fingerpaint. Did they make a good game is the relevant question. Not even did they succeed in making the game better.
After the mess they made of the last edition, that bar could be cleared by a hamster on sleeping pills.
AngryPanda: “GW is not some toddler we look at proudly for managing to fingerpaint.”
After the 7th Edition Tyranid and Chaos Codexes? No, I am very impressed this toddler is fingerpainting.
I have been able to field and enjoy most of my Tyranid and Chaos models since 8th edition launched. I don’t have to go play a friendly game and look at 65% of my collection and understand that taking them means game over.
I’m not saying the game is wonderful, but it was sooooo crappy for me in Codex Flyrant and Codex :Helturkey + Cultist (which may have been 6th, not 7th?)
“After the 7th Edition Tyranid and Chaos Codexes? No, I am very impressed this toddler is fingerpainting.”
Ha! Okay, I don’t agree but I can see that. If you measure from what we had recently it seems like a massive upgrade. I refuse to count it because the last edition wasn’t some sort of natural disaster but their work and just making something so bad ANYTHING seems good in comparison shouldn’t count but that is just my opinion.
I also think it’s because I had a huge CSM and Tyranid collection, and they were mostly useless. Whatever we say about this edition, the number of competitive units has increased. Or maybe the number of super pathetic units has decreased?
I don’t know if this has been said or not but there is a very big problem with the wording for the character rules. If they have removed “characteristic” from the wounds characteristic, this means RAW, that as larger hqs start to take damage, they can no longer be targeted by further shooting attacks. Obviously haven’t seen the book, but the websites who have written out the rule seem to be have not included it. Definitely need to be errated if it is missing as this is a huge deal.
So-Orks are underwhelming… But I’m kinda tempted to put out 1 unit of 30 boys and a bunch of 10 boy units so as to create a giant mess!
Tactically sound? No, not really… but it would be fun!
It’s good as the game goes on and your are taking casualties. If a unit gets ground down to a few Boyz left, but aren’t killed, you can combine them with another unit to deny your opponent a Kill Point. That is super good, and can win games, particularly in progressive missions. I mean, if you don’t play with KP or what have you, then sure, it’s not as good, but it is hardly as bad as some folks make it out to be. I think this is one you need to play to understand it’s utility.
The Relic is rad, too! But, hey, I am not here to tell anyone what to think. I have found them to be good but others will draw their own conclusions (hopefully after actually trying them out, lol).
Orks are underwhelming from the index, not because of these updates. Of all the armies, I think they are screaming the most for the fun and expansive options their various clans or Wargroups or whatever will bring.
They aren’t super top-tier competitive, but I just keep looking at the index wondering how they will do Speed Freaks, or Feral Orks, or Bad Moonz, Blood Axes, etc!
So until the army gets fleshed out… underwhelming!
Totally fair comment. But, CA wasn’t meant to give you everything, just a little bit to spice things up for you until you get your dex.
Truth! But it’s all about expectations. I didn’t really have any expected playstyles from the Hive Fleets, for example. So I wasn’t looking forward to them. Same with the Genestealer Cults, Imperial Knight houses, Necron Dynasties and whatever Tau have … But Orks and IG have this rich (and honestly, slightly insane) history.
Once it was clear that everyone will get subfactions, it’s hard to be satisfied with the vanilla index.
Yeah, good points. I think people had just expected more form CA than they got which is why they’re upset.
Wow! So much hating on Reece. Not cool dudes, not cool. He’s just putting forward his opinion and you’re dumping your hate and anger on him. In case you didn’t notice, they didn’t write Chapter Approved. The FLG team is not the only authority on what is good/bad in the 40k world, so take things with a grain of salt. They’re just like us: players and enthusiasts who are sharing their views on the hobby they love. Hating on them is like hating on your gaming buddies. You wouldn’t do it to their face, so don’t do it over the net like a coward. Get a life and stop being an internet troll.
Regarding Chapter Approved: it’s a welcome addition to a rapidly expanding data library of rules and points. It fixed up a few major issues, but there is still more work to be done. That’s okay – the Imperium wasn’t built (or destroyed if you’re Chaos) in a day. I’m sure there are more changes to come and if people are patient, and provide constructive feedback, they’ll get a better game they can enjoy for a long time. You haven’t seen the final tapestry, so don’t make such sweeping judgements after only seeing one corner or two. Also, be realistic: this is a dice game. There is a LOT of randomness to the outcome of any battle. GW is trying to sort out the big wrinkles first, before moving onto the minor creases.
If you’re worried about investing in something only to see it altered later, then paint what you have (or what you like) and accept that you’re list may not be optimised until the game settles down. NO game this size can be settled in the time we’ve seen since its release. That is a just a fact of life. Reece’s advice to “buy what you like and don’t ride the meta wave” (I’m paraphrasing of course) is VERY SOLID ADVICE.
Finally, to Reece and the FLG team, thanks for writing the articles. I enjoy reading them and I like to have the insights of other quality players. I know you cannot always reveal some secrets and insider knowledge, but you share what you can and it’s greatly appreciated.
Well said brother. Rvd1ofakind, please read that comment and take some notes
*hands out free cult membership tees*
Maybe you should take your head out of your whatever you have it in, and READ THE FOLLOWING, which will be written in large friendly letters:
I DO NOT HATE FLG.
I DO THINK THAT GW ARE MAKING REALLY DUMB DECISIONS.
Done. Thank you.
…he’s an angry elf…
Hey, thanks. Much appreciated. And yeah, take our advice for what it is: opinions. informed opinions of course, but still just opinions. Feel free to disagree. It’s funny because I have ALWAYS taken the stance of trying to run counter to the competitive meta just because that is my style. We try to find the positive in units that may be not so great. I think now just because we are known to be associated with GW, that people see it differently. Eh, it is what it is.
Thanks for the kind words, though.
I’m genuinely impressed that Reece has the patience to wade through the comments section of this article, I threw up in my my mouth after the first wave of bitching. I think a list I used in October at a GT is now 2458 points by my count, but I really cant be *that* mad lol. I think that the reason this CA looks “weird” is because there have been so many recent releases and there are (presumably) quite a few ahead after BA/CSM/CD. Looking at the codexes, SM, AM, and DG took significant points changes, while IG took a few as well. All of the FW indexes took massive nerfs but ah well. So it seems to me that Eldar Nids hadnt been played enough to make a points change for CA as neither received any Codex unit changes, which gives us a failry good idea on when this was finalized for printing. I wish that CA had included more index armies points-wise but I get it that those are all probably getting more points changes in their impending codex. I honestly think that CA’18 will be the true test to how GW balances the game, since we should have every codex by then at this rate.
Thanks to Reece for the review.
Thanks for the support, friend.
Here’s a fun fact. If you take a Bloodthirster, it takes 216 bolter shots to kill him.
Bolters are anti-horde weapons because they lack AP. Str 4 makes it great for killing Tough 3 tiny units with low armor save. Obviously it shuold be more efficient against tough 3 troops, right? Well let’s see
If you take an equivalent number of brimstones (113), it takes 510 bolter shots to kill them. That’s disregarding the fact that they have access to a -1 to be hit aura…
But let’s say brimstones are OP, broken, etc…
Pink Horrors. They’re pretty bad. Let’s check those out(48 of them in this case). It takes 218 shots.
So again:
Bloodthirster: 216 shots
Brimstones:510 shots
Pink Horrors: 218 shots
Why does an anti-horde weapon, like a bolter work better against a huge monster than small tiny troops?
What about an anti tank weapon(Las cannon). By this broken logic, it should work better against troops? :p
Bloodthirster: 15.42857143 shots
Brimstones: 408 shots
Pink horrors: 174 shots
Yeah……. This is why I don’t think any math was done when making up the point costs.
For BT to start to be more resilient to bolter shots than Brimstones, he should cost 140 points. Wow. That’s -200 points. Obviously, we have to take offensive capabilities into account… But we can clearly see that anti-horde weapons are more efficient at killing big guys than actual hordes. And that’s…. quite sad.
Do not look at this as a practical example obviously. It just prooves the, rather well know fact, that currently 1 wound model survivability is very undervalued and multi wound model survivability is very overvalued (and of course that the BT is an overpriced piece of garbage that belongs in the nearest trashcan).
So anti-horde weapons are way more popular than anti-vehicle weapons with good reason. Which is why the lone superhaevy lists tend to do really poorly and the multi superheavy lists thrive (as the opponent does not have enough heavy weapons).
If you think invul saves are evil:
let’s grab post neft conscripts
229 shots to kill 340 pts of conscripts.
Ork boys? Why not? 204 shots? Just a tad better against a literal HORDE than against the BT
Cultists? 183. Wow. That’s almost good! The anti-horde weapon is 19% more effective!
Let’s see how much the anti tank weapon is effective. Oh… 816% Whelp…
You are completely ignoring the effects of morale for these scenarios, which is a major component of how small models compare to big models in terms of survivability.
Which is the entire point. Hordes of Culstits, poxwalkers, ork boys, etc don’t give a rats ass about morale.
However the main models that suffer from morale currently are elite models like AdMech, where a unit can’t be bigger than 10 (ignoring priests). However pretty much every horde has an ignore morale mechanic.
But it also disregards bigger models degrading. Which honestly, is one of the biggest hit or miss mechanics in this edition.
Just look at the Nid Codex. If you have a Tyrannofex, he becomes useless after 7 or 8 W if he has a rupture cannon. He remains pretty effective until death with acid spray. Tervigons degrading don’t matter, lol. Most of the other big bugs which shoot (Harpy, Hive Crone) become useless at half health. The Hive Tyrant remains a beast almost until death.
Not disagreeing with either point. It’s just a really complication in evaluating the big vs. the small units in the game.
>Hordes of Culstits, poxwalkers, ork boys, etc don’t give a rats ass about morale.
Excepting Poxwalkers, this isn’t true.
If you have a unit of 30 Ork Boyz and I kill 18 of them during a turn, you will need to roll a morale check. And, in fact, you will probably lose most (or even possibly all) of the remaining unit to that morale check. Cultists are even more vulnerable to morale. There are characters that can allow you to mitigate this, but those characters cost points themselves, can be sniped out, can’t be everywhere on the battlefield at once, etc.
Ork boyz’ mob rule is pretty much free. You’ll never see just 1 unit of boyz…
Either way, there is the 2CP to pass morale. You can’t make your big guy not take half the damage for 2CP. Even if you can for some armies, it’s always something that’s done at the beginning of the phase. “This unit takes half damage. Oh ok. Then I’ll shoot the other ones”.
There’s a reason we currently have the “lots of small dudes” meta. Results speak for themselves. Lone superheavies/big dudes just don’t do enough at the moment. It’s either you take 75% of your list as big dudes or leave them in the shelf.
Also, it doesn’t change the fact that the anti-big dude weapons are complete crap when aimed at hordes, while anti-horde weapons do quite well vs big dudes
And yeah, decaying past lvl 1 makes Bloodthister basically unuseable
I’ve found it *really* hard to break Mob Rule; chances are that somewhere on the board, there’s a unit of 20 Orks, and you can bet your bottom dollar that they’ll have enough 5-man units to daisy-chain that Ld20 across the entire army. Not to mention Breaking Heads!
That and I’ve had nightmares just killing Boyz in general. You don’t appreciate how tough T4 with a 5++ and a 6+++ (which my maths works out as a 45% damage reduction) is until you’ve tried to shoot through 90 of them with nothing but Lasguns and Punisher Cannons 🙁
Dude, you’re comparing him to the most skewed defensive unit in the game which I think everyone can agree needs to get toned down. That is taking the exception and treating it as the rule. Your basic premise is flawed.
I’ve compared him to like 5 different units. Check the responses
But isn’t the thing that the marines works get the chance to get all those shots in against the pox walker (the ones not worrying about morale) where as the bloodthirster will have wiped most of those menus out before they even get the chance to get those shots in. Try some if your scenarios out and see what happens
Marines not menus! Although for a bloodthirster Marines are always on the menu 🙂
Reecius,
I generally appreciate your positive sentiments towards a hobby we all really enjoy. I also genuinely appreciate GW’s efforts to evolve a more balanced game on a much faster time table than ever before. Even if an individual still thinks there are balance issues, our hopes for having them fixed are now on a time table of months rather than years. Surely that is a better situation. I also, in concept, like the fact that GW is better examining feedback from players and event organizers. It’s very easy to get ‘end of the world’ about many concepts and that is unfortunate. I far more enjoy…well…’enjoying’ my hobby. Heck, I like reading 1d4chan’s tactica stuff because it is so often so cheerfully written.
I will say, however, that I do think there are some worthy criticisms to level at this particular book, in a way I have not felt about pretty much any other of the altogether excellent publications in 8th edition. For example, it is probably reasonable for people to feel odd or even critical Cawl being reduced in points when the community GW post stated he would be increased in points; that was a clear misstep. Additionally, many might feel upset over the extent of he maelific lord nerf: this does feel like an over-reaction when compared not only to the primarus psycher, but also the spirit seer, heralds and neuronthrope. I do think that change, and a few others, feel more like punishment than a measured, reasoned correction (which was needed). Again, this is also related to the text with which it was accompanied: it suggested people who ran many lords were ‘unscrupulous’. It is quite peculiar, and a bit offensive, for GW to call out a particular spam list as worse than others. While maelific lords + brimstones may have been quite demoralizing or unpleasant to play against, many lists over the years, and even in 8th, share that designation. A more professional, confidence-inspiring reaction would have been for GW to state something more like ‘we do feel we initially undervalued this unit and feel we need to make a shift’ and then raise the points by a more modest amount; a shift to even 50 or 60 points would have felt less punitive, while still putting the unit in a weaker position than several comparable psychers.
For example, as much as I might personally feel Girlyman remains too influential, I greatly appreciate the more incremental shifts to make certain he is not priced suddenly out of play-ability: upping the cost of the units he most efficiently supports, then upping his cost modestly is the sort of nuanced, measured approach which seeks to address potential imbalance without making it feel like we are being told not to play. Similarly, even if conscripts are over-weakened by a combination of all of the changes, their changes were incremental and measured; they were not simply doubled in points with a note saying ‘we did this because you’re unscrupulous if you run conscripts’. These specific examples aren’t meaningful in themselves, but the contrast is in the two different approaches to managing balance: one feels reasoned, one does not. It sucks to see a unit you like weakened, but it leaves a bad taste to see it go up 100% or more in cost and be told you were bad for ever playing it.
As to the criticisms of the announced additions to the various xenos forces, you are 100% correct that additions only improve armies. I think people could articulate their frustrations better by suggesting they had hoped for different changes. Certainly, the wych cult warlord trait is not completely unusable; that is hyperbole. It would be better to say: ‘I think it kinda sucks that a trait meant for a melee character, who is not broadly thought of as very strong, is not useful when using what is generally considered her best weapon. It seems like they could have made a better choice’. I also agree that the webway strike is darn solid: I’ve seen the devastating power of what my 8 point devil gaunts can do; sure my 7 point warriors won’t manage quite as well, but it’ll still be neat. But, on the other hand, I think it is viewed as a missed opportunity: it is more valid to say some armies can feel as if they are on the weaker side, could use some help and did not get as much when this book is touted as a major yearly analysis of balancing what is good and what is not. Even seemingly easy changes; corsair bikes were modified, but reavers were not, melta was examined, but DE blasters vs Harly fusion pistols was not. Surely, DE are better off than they were before, but I think the criticisms come with the idea that they should have been thought through a bit more. Ynnari I think have the most valid reasons to be salty, since they neither received any kind of review nor do they have an upcoming codex to look forward to. The same could be said for Renegade Knights.
First of all, thank you very much for the measured response. I appreciate that.
And, I agree with all of your points. So much of it comes down to perception and obviously ours is a lot different due to the knowledge we have about why decisions were made and what is coming. I have to constantly remind myself that everyone else only has the present information to work with and so it can be tough to understand what is hapenning.
And yeah, it comes down to communicating effectively. I catch a lot of shit because I think to some people I represent an individual that they can direct frustration at that represents GW, even if I don’t have even a fraction of the power they think I do, lol. I have learned to shrug it off, part of the job now, I guess.
But yeah, you make some excellent points and while I seriously shed no tears for units like the Malefic Lord or Super Chicken that were just criminally under-priced, for someone that just picked it up and played, it probably feels like cold water in the face even if the changes are for the better long term.
Reecius,
I don’t think it is about directing frustration at you (ok…well maybe to some that’s EXACTLY it)…but your review is entirely positive, and that leaves me skeptical as it doesn’t sound very objective. In an effort to try to remaining appropriately critical…it stands to reason that you receive the benefit of playing with these rules, etc…in advance of others getting to play with them, and I don’t think it is wrong to wonder what sway that places on a review.
I play Dark Eldar, and while I think the relic and perhaps the coven warlord trait are alright, the Cult warlord trait suffers from a few issues:
1) Many have addressed this: but it causes significant issues with the Archite Glaive, as it is -1 to hit. Our entire army suffers from an inability to generate a large pool of wounds on trash mobs. best we can hope for, en masse, in both shooting and melee is 4+ to wound. I think many saw this as an opportunity to provide some assistance with (potentially) generating a large hit pool with wounds being dealt at 3+.
2) Variability: the Succubus has yet another level of variability placed on her. Variability associated with effectively popping off “No Escape”, variability with combat drugs (i.e. do I opt to give one of my better combat drugs to a singular model, or a larger squad?), and now the variability of MAYBE generating these additional hits. In other words, the Cult warlord has a chance of being decent, or a continued waste of points; not enough to hang your hat on.
3) Cult/Coven/Kabal fracturing: admittedly, the ruling is still out on this one, but many are concerned that GW is going to create even unnecessary or ill-thought out fracturing amongst the army.
I get that I’m very vested in a singular army and you’re doing a review on many, but that one is a pretty catch, and it concerns me it wasn’t caught or discussed and what that means for the rest of the review. Everything can’t be great; not comparatively.
I totally understand and respect your point. I had a strong counter-reaction because from my perspective it was like, look, all of the factions that didn’t get anything now do! Cool, a little something to hold you over until you get your dex!
And the reaction was like someone stole people’s cookies, lol. It just baffled me, to be upset about getting a benefit but acting like they got something taken away. Just, a really negative reaction.
Objectively these are all benefits. So yeah, I was positive. In the factions section, everyone only gained, there was no loss, lol. And while you are absolutely correct in that you can compare what one faction got to what you got and make a value judgement, what good does that do? I understand the urge to, but it’s totally fruitless and if that is the basis for one’s judgement of what they got they will always feel shorted as the grass is greener, etc. etc.
My advice is to look for the silver lining. As a wise man once said, we can’t control what happens but we can control our reaction to it. I don’t mean to sound condescending at all, but the reaction from some truly was petulant, lol. It’s cool to take the stance that you don’t rate the benefit, but to make the illogical argument that it was actually a detriment is just silly.
But, to you point about its value, it is a good trait. As you get that +1 to hit through PfP, you’ll eventually be getting 3 hits for every 5+ to hit. That’s really good. And yes, things are random but hey, it’s a dice game, you know? There are very few automatic effects. And again, I have to say it feels like some folks are trying to find ways to see this in a negative light. It’s hard to discuss something when the other party has already decided what they think are do not remain open to seeing another point of view.
So, anyway, I get your point. I can try to tone down some of my (genuine) positivity but I will not take the stance of cynicism, either. Nor will I dismiss things as “garbage or broken” which the 40k internet community so often slots units into either category which is so limiting. The creativity of finding ways to make things useful and fun is what I get most excited about in competitive 40k. I love nothing more than winning a game with things other think are sub-optimal. That shows in the way i review things, too. I try to be honest, but to look for the positives and to give someone that wants to use that unit tips that help them do so.
Great appreciate the follow up and to that point, your effort to follow up on many (MANY) of these. That is more than can be said about other individuals.
Happy to do what I can =)
And to your point about being the underdog and still winning…I couldn’t agree more. It’s just becoming more and more challenging!!
Both your perspectives are very interesting here! I think you are both focusing on two different things about Chapter Approved, and its really interesting, because of course a person who only owns a few lists will look at his few lists and see how things changed, whereas a Reecius (who interacts with almost all lists) has a different perspective.
To a large degree, the only thing that really matters between different factions is how they perform relative to each other. Before Chapter approved (especially after the Ynnari changes), I think there are two clear tiers of armies, the lists with codexes and the lists without.
Ignoring soup for a moment, I would say codexes are much better than the indexes. So if you rank the best factions in the game, all the factions with codexes come first in some order, and are followed by all the index stragglers, in some order.
Then along comes Chapter Approved. One thing we can focus on is that most of the index factions get new boosts. The gap is closed (maybe only slightly) between the codex factions. This is what Reece is focusing on. But there is another thing we can look at- the balance amongst the various index factions. Even though every list got stronger relative to the Codex lists, some factions inevitably are getting hurt by getting a weaker selection of traits, stratagems, and relics. This seems to be what SushiBoy13 and others are looking at.
What you describe as punishment probably is. It hasn’t been long since any sort of competitive player was basically seen as evil incarnate and I remember then GW was way more aggressive about it. Their basic premise has always been “blame the player, not the game” an attitude they managed to induce into a large fraction of the player base who still blame the whole competitive scene for the issues of the game. Punishing players for misbehaving, instead of fixing issues fits perfectly into this old attitude.
I mean what has it been, two years since they thought their main customer base doesn’t even play the game at all?
OK, lol, this is wild speculation.
The GW devs go to tournaments themselves, now, and play the game with their customers. It really is a different GW.
Reece, all respect to you and what you guys do. If you hadn’t put your hand in the fire for this edition I wouldn’t even care, I’d just have walked away, done and done. But GW? I’d have to use enough slurs you’d have to delete my answer here to properly describe my feelings for them. Maybe, MAYBE, they have changed. But they haven’t communicated that, have in fact tried to already cash that “new GW” label in without earning it and still have actually been the people who did all that crap in the first place.
Even if they released some sort of mission statement about what their aims for the game are, if they value their players, etc and all that it would be hard to believe them. And they haven’t. We are just all supposed to be happy they stopped treating us like like fecal that got stuck on their shoe and trust that they’ll be swell dudes from now on.
I’m gonna go and grumbl and gnaw on some bamboo now…
Do you still play this game?
I get the angst but we work with these guys on pretty much a daily basis and they’re just like you and I. They love the hobby and they want the game to be as good as it can be. I have so much more respect for what they do now, it is so much harder than any of us thought it was. I was the same, very critical of them and asking “why didn’t they obviously do X” etc. However, having been a part of it, man, I can tell you with total honesty that I feel bad for being so critical now. It is vastly more complex than you would think and they work against a lot of constraints out of their control. It’s an awesome but tough gig.
There’s room for improvement of course, and they constantly try to get better but yeah, it isn’t easy. However, all the gentlemen there I have worked with are awesome people and I have a lot of respect for what they’re trying to do and build.
I can’t imagine anything short of brain slugs to explain their attitude till now. Their process being some sort of secret sauce doesnt help. Im just gonna asume it’s like living, wriggling british breakfast susages inserted into their ears by some space warlord who mind controlled them or something and take your word for it.
My primary criticism of this book is that we’re still going to see just as much Bobby G, Celestine, Magnus and Morty as we do right now. I appreciate some of the other minor rebalances but don’t think Chapter Approved does much to balance the game. It doesn’t do nearly enough to increase the diversity of units we see on the table.
My second criticicism is that Forgeworld continues to have no real quality control with a lot of their rules. The Eldar FW index was like their rules team huffed Citadel superglue while writing. And the CA “rebalance” is no different.
We still see things like Corsair wargear not updated to 8th edition, and ridiculous 7 point lasblaster “upgrades” which are actually downgrades over the free shardcarbine. And WTH is up with the warp hunter costing 300 points now? That thing was over as it was and now it’s like +50 or something.
And and a 2000 point Revenant with clunky, ineffective rules that make it weaker than far cheaper imperial counterparts?
Forgeworld just sucks. I mean all kinds of sucks.
Forgeworld presents some challenges for sure. It is a work in progress.
I hope that GW don’t get discouraged by some of toxic comments, just like any other video games company you need thick skin doing balance changes, but the silent majority will applaud the effort. I’ve wanted GW to take balance seriously for 20 years, I will have their back regardless of how some changes may look weird to your subjective opinion.
Yea maybe GW wanted to punish FW little extra, but honestly they needed a kick in the arse for their sloppy codexes and lack of updates. If they don’t want to be in the balance business they have no place in competative 40k.
Oh I’m all for most of the changes. But it wasn’t nearly enough changes rules wise. We will still have our crap load of tiny troops meta vs 3 superheavies IMO. Nothing has changed there.
Oh and character spam too.
I don’t feel like the Necron stratagems are very good. Being able to heal a Canoptek unit is good when you have 5 dead Wraiths (63 pts for 2 CP, 95 CP if they are within 3″ of a Cryptek). The problem I see is that Tyranids get 240 pts for 2 CP with regaining a unit of 20 Genestealers or 30 Devourer Gaunts. Maybe if you took some of the horrible options Wraiths have, but then, you’re taking horrible options to make a meh stratagem into a “good” stratagem for your bad army. Re-rolling 1s for 2 CP is horrible. 40 pts in the most insane of circumstances, a unit of 10 Lychguard with shields (horrible) within 3″ of a Cryptek and also being affected by a res-orb (again another option that is only worthwhile in a bad list). This is made even worse since Necrons have a super hard time of getting CP, their characters aren’ worth spamming and making a Brigade to make use of these Stratagems is a joke.
The warlord trait is really good and the relic is beyond insane, so that’s nice. Hopefully, my fellow index players who aren’t getting a new codex soon aren’t feeling the same way as I do, that this, while a nice gesture, isn’t nearly enough.
Well well well..
I wonder what I have been telling all of you from DAY ONE abut overcosted 8th:ed units. Hmm, lets compare to actual point changes in CA:
Termies to costly for what they do – check
Primaris troops to costly – check.
Primaris HB interceptors to costly – check.
Primaris plasma interceptors WAAAY to costly (remember the flak I got over this one?) – check!
Whirlwinds to costly (what a whining idiot I was that dared to say that) – check.
Hordes to effective due to lack of counters – check!
The irony! lol
Can anyone explain why the GK got left in the wind? With points increases based on how SM use razorbacks and Ravens?
Its not like we’re going to get a Codex any time soon to sort out our issues.