The new Chaos Space marines dex gives you exactly what you’d expect from them: RAW POWER. For more informative articles, check out the Tactics Corner.
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Introduction
The Codex train has left the station and the next stop is downtown Chaos! The Chaos Space Marines are a long suffering but iconic faction in the 40k universe. From the days of the legendary (but also legendarily unbalanced) 3.5 Chaos Dex, it has been a steady decline for the Traitor Legions. Their 5th ed dex was one of the best performing armies the game has ever seen in terms of tournament performance, but sucked a lot of the flavor out of what made Chaos Space Marines so cool. And when the 6th ed CSM dex came…well, better to leave the past in the past.
But now, well, the times have changed. What we saw in Traitor legions at the end of 7th was a good indicator of what to expect in 8th. Legion traits, characterful and powerful stratagems, warlord traits, artifacts, points and stat adjustments and more are here. For the first time in a long time I feel that Chaos Space Marines have what the fluff always indicated they did: POWER. Power at the expense of their humanity, power at the expense of the coordination of loyalist Marines but hey, that’s why you sell your soul to the Dark Gods, right?! And that is what you get.
Overview
The Chaos Space Marine codex has a lot going for it. First of all, you get your Legion traits which go in the Faction Keyword in <brackets> (which, are we starting to see a pattern, here?). These kick in–exactly as with Space Marines–when every model in a detachment shares that Faction Keyword. There are a few exceptions for units that float around like Fabius Bile and the Fallen which you can take while retaining your Legion Traits. These apply to all Bikers, Infantry and Dreadnoughts. Also, your troops in these detachments gain the Despoilers of the Galaxy rule, giving them “ObSec” as we found in the Space Marines Codex overview. This is huge and when combined with the Stratagems (and the Chaos stratagems are truly AWESOME!) incentivizes you to take troops. Whether that be in the form of hordes of Cultists, Chaos Space Marines or cult Marines in a legion list with access to them, I find myself gravitating to at least one battalion in every chaos list I bring. I really can’t stress enough how amazing those Chaos stratagems are, and we will dig into them further down.
On top of this, Chaos Space Marines got marks of chaos, a slew of new Psychic Powers including the meta changing Death Hex! Suffice it to say, if you are a CSM player, you are going to be stoked.
Legion Traits:
- Black Legion: +1 Leadership and can advance and treat Rapid Fire weapons as assault weapons.
- This is quite good for any unit that wants to be mobile and packs weapons like Bolters, Plasma Guns, etc. such as Chaos Bikers, Raptors and even just Chaos Space Marines.
- Iron Warriors: Ignores cover and reroll wounds vs. buildings.
- These Legion traits, much like their arch-enemies the Imperial Fists, are leaving some players feeling flat but cover is quite good and it essentially gives you an additional -1 AP vs. anything benefiting from it.
- Renegade Chapters: Advance and charge.
- BOOM! This is an awesome ability and gives you huge range.
- World Eaters: +1 attack on the charge.
- Good lawd! If you thought Khorne Berzerkers were already blenders…..
- Night Lords: -1 to enemy leadership for each Night Lords unit with the trait within 6″ up to a -3.
- Sooo good. So, so good! I have been using these to just brutal effect against my opponents.
- Emperor’s Children: Always trike first in melee.
- Alpha Legion: -1 to hit for units with the trait more than 12″ away.
- If you’ve played against raven Guard, you know how damn good this trait is!
- Word Bearers: re-roll failed morale checks.
- While certainly not exciting, it is quite useful.
Notable Changes
GW has taken a very serious approach to balancing the game and we’ve already seen these rolling out quickly. Some in this book help a ton!
- Exalted Champion: Chaos’ answer to the Space Marine lieutenant…and a resounding answer at that! This new model in the CSM lineup is incredible. He hits hard himself and has access to a plethora of options but his main purpose is a 6″ reroll failed wound roll aura in melee. Holy smokes, this is terribly powerful! This model will be seen in many a Chaos list.
- Brimstone Horrors: these little buggers cause a lot of angst and for good reason. They were too cheap and too tough. Well, they went up in points to 3 per base. They also cannot do D3 damage Smites unless there are 10 Pink Horrors in the unit, which if below this, they only do 1 Mortal Wound. They’re still awfully powerful but this helps to mitigate them quite a bit. And yes, these do override the index. As in Age of Sigmar, you use the newest version of any datasheet.
- Possessed: 2 wounds, you say? Ohhh my! This makes these bad boys much more appealing and with all of the various combinations you can apply to them via Marks, legion traits, etc. they are quite good now.
- Daemons: all went down in points (apart from Brims and Blues) making them VERY appealing. Bloodletters particularly….wow. I summon in a unit of 30 (now only needing a summoning roll of a 12) and they are extra choppy. They may be too cheap, actually as not much can withstand their assault.
- Obliterators: are vastly improved. They may not be what they were in ye old days, but they now are a potent unit to bring in from reserves and unleash hell on your opponent and resilient enough to hang around after the initial strike.
- Khorne Lord of Skulls: saw a massive points reduction! This big guy is even more potent now than he was.
- Wargear: As with Space Marines, many wargear items went down in cost such as the Power Fist which now weighs in at a very reasonable 12pts.
Stratagems
This is seriously where the magic happens in this book. Space Marines also got some killer stratagems but for my money, Chaos really cleans up, here. There are a lot to get excited about but here are a few of my favorites!
- Veterans of the Long War: +1 to wound for the shooting or fight phase for an Infantry or Biker unit.
- This is a bombshell of a stratagem. When used on the right unit and in conjunction with other abilities such as Prescience and/or Death Hex, you will simply erase your target.
- Fury of Khorne: Have your Khorne unit attack again in the fight phase.
- This is characterful and just brutally powerful. Berzerkers attacking for a 3rd time? Khorne Terminators attacking again? Wow. The World Eaters Legion trait of +1 attack lasts the entire phase as does Veterans of the Long War above, meaning you can have a supercharged melee unit for a phase!
- Endless Caophony: Slaneesh units may shoot for a second time in the shooting phase.
- As above, this is just punishing! Slaanesh Terminators dropping down and unloading with 10 combi-weapons twice is just crushingly powerful. And, remember, Veterans of the Long War above, lasts the entire phase, so you’d get +1 to wound twice!
- Tide of Traitors: Remove a unit of Cultists from the table at the end of your movement phase and return them to the game within 6″ of a table edge and 9″ away from enemy units at full strength.
- By Khorne’s nuts this is amazing! So long as even a single Cultist survives, you can bring the entire unit back on to the table to snag an objective and win the game! And remember, replenishing a unit means you don’t have to pay points for the models and with ObSec, you can easily seal victory with this ability.
- Scorn of Sorcery: World Eaters can stop a psychic powers on a 4+.
- This can turn the tide of battle as many list strategies hinge on getting that one, critical psychic power off to win the game. And of course, you can reroll this die with another command point if the first attempt fails.
- Forward Operatives: Alpha Legion units may be set up anywhere on the table 9″ away from enemy units before the first battle round begins.
- Dark Pact: Word Bearers can reroll any of the dice when attempting to summon and ignore mortal wounds in the attempt.
- This makes summoning almost a guarantee and with no risk of taking any damage. Very, very good for lists that hinge around bringing a unit of daemons into play when they want them to.
New Psychic Powers
Chaos in my opinion have the best school of psychic powers to choose from. Movement powers, buffs, debuffs and damage output. They do it all. As if Prescience and Warp Time weren’t enough, they got the new all-star power: Death Hex. Death Hex is a 12″ range power that removes the target unit’s invulnerable save until the start of your next psychic phase. WOW. This makes Null Zone pale in comparison. The amount of uses are crazy but what it does is remove variability from cracking truly tough targets. Things like Roboute, Imperial Knights, Brimstones, Harlequins, Magnus (if you can get the power off), etc. just melt when you hit them with Death Hex. It is a truly meta changing power and makes Chaos Sorcerers and Daemon Princes even more appealing. Now, Death Hex is warp charge 8, so it is certainly is not a certainty to go off but when it does: my goodness.
Diabolic Strength is fun to make powerful Chaos melee characters even better and Gift of Chaos can one shot characters if you can get in range (and remember, psychic powers can target any unit in range even if they are Characters unless they specify otherwise). The God specific powers are also incredible. Weaver of Fates for Tzeentch gives you +1 to your invul save (Magnus, anyone?!), and a 5+ FnP style save for Slaanesh units with Delightful Agonies. Generally, Chaos players are spoiled for choice in the psychic department.
Warlord Traits
I probably sound like a broken record at this point but again, Chaos gets a ton of awesome options here. Below are some of my favorite.
- Lord of Terror: Opponent rolls an extra dice when taking morale checks and keeps the highest result.
- BRUTAL! I use this trait in my Night Lords army and it is devastatingly powerful. My hands down favorite Warlord Trait.
- Flames of Spite: Wound rolls for your Warlord of a 6+ in melee do a Mortal Wound in addition to any other damage.
- Cold and Bitter: Iron Warriors units within 6″ of your Warlord automatically pass morale tests.
- This is incredibly good. Morale becomes more a part of the game as we go, and this power totally blocks the negative effects of it. Especially good with Cultists!
- I am Alpharius: If your Warlord is slain, pick a new Warlord until every character in your army is dead. All of them get a random Warlord trait from the main Chaos table. Your opponent only gets points for slaying the Warlord if they kill all of your characters!
- Beyond being characterful, this is seriously good as denying Slay the Warlord to your opponent can win you the game.
Artefacts
Chaos also boasts a selection of very cool and useful Artefacts. As with Space Marines, these are “free”, replacing an existing item or being added to an eligible model’s wargear. You can take one unless you spend CP for 1-2 more items. Special characters cannot take them. Here are a few of my favorites!
- Talisman of Burning Blood: Khorne model can advance and charge, and reroll failed charges.
- The Cursed Crozius: Replaces the Power Maul of a Word Bearers model. +2 strength, Ap-2, 3 Damage. Rerolls failed wound rolls vs. Imperium faction units.
- Fleshmetal Exoskeleton: Iron Warriors character gets a 2+ save and regenerates 1 wound a turn.
- Slap this bad boy on a Daemon Prince or Chaos Lord and you’ve get a big boost in durability.
- Brass Collar of Bhorgaster: Khorne model gains the ability to Deny the Witch and if he does so, the enemy psyker suffers Perils.
- Claws of the Black Hunt: Night Lords character, replaces the model’s Lightening Claws. Strength +1, AP -3, D3 damage, +1 attack, reroll failed wound rolls.
- These are savage melee weapons, and turns a Chaos Lord into a blender!
There are so many combos in this Codex it is hard to know where to begin. You have the ability to create powerful, themed armies using the models you want to use, not only those you feel like you have to use. So, instead of trying to explain it all, here’s my latest iteration of Night Lords list. I have kept the core of Lord, Sorcerer, Daemon Prince, 3 Raptors, Chaos Terminators and Chaos Space Marines the entire time, but I am experimenting with how to spend the last 160ish points.
| Unit | Force Org | Cost | # | Total | Weapons | Cost | # | Total | Total | Notes |
| Outrider | Night Lords | Command Points | 1 | |||||||
| Lord with Jump Pack | HQ | 93 | 1 | 93 | Lightening Claws | 12 | 1 | 12 | Claws of the Black Hunt, Mark of Khorne | |
| Berzerkers | Elites | 16 | 10 | 160 | Chain Axe | 1 | 9 | 9 | ||
| 0 | Power Sword | 4 | 1 | 4 | ||||||
| 0 | Icon of Wrath | 10 | 1 | 10 | ||||||
| Chaos Rhino | Transport | 70 | 1 | 70 | Combi Bolter | 2 | 1 | 2 | ||
| Chaos Terminators | Elites | 31 | 10 | 310 | Lightening Claw | 8 | 10 | 80 | Mark of Slaanesh | |
| 0 | Combi-Plasma | 15 | 10 | 150 | ||||||
| Raptors | Fast Attack | 17 | 5 | 85 | Plasma Gun | 13 | 2 | 26 | Mark of Slaanesh | |
| 0 | Combi-Plasma | 15 | 1 | 15 | ||||||
| Raptors | Fast Attack | 17 | 5 | 85 | Melta Gun | 17 | 2 | 34 | Mark of Slaanesh | |
| 0 | Combi-Melta | 19 | 1 | 19 | ||||||
| Raptors | Fast Attack | 17 | 5 | 85 | Melta Gun | 17 | 2 | 34 | Mark of Slaanesh | |
| Combi-Melta | 19 | 1 | 19 | |||||||
| Battalion | Night Lords | Command Points | 3 | |||||||
| Daemon Prince with Wings | HQ | 170 | 1 | 170 | Malefic Talons | 10 | 1 | 10 | ||
| Sorcerer with Jump Pack | HQ | 114 | 1 | 114 | Force Axe | 16 | 1 | 16 | Mark of Slaanesh | |
| Chaos Space Marines | Troops | 13 | 5 | 65 | Flamer | 9 | 1 | 9 | ||
| Combi-Flamer | 11 | 1 | 11 | |||||||
| Chaos Space Marines | Troops | 13 | 5 | 65 | Flamer | 9 | 1 | 9 | ||
| Combi-Flamer | 11 | 1 | 11 | |||||||
| Chaos Rhino | Transport | 70 | 1 | 70 | Combi Bolter | 2 | 1 | 2 | ||
| Cultists | Troops | 4 | 10 | 40 | 0 | |||||
| Havocs | Heavy | 13 | 5 | 65 | Auto-Cannon | 20 | 2 | 40 | Mark of Slaanesh | |
| Command Points | 0 | |||||||||
| 0 | 0 | |||||||||
| Totals | 65 | 1477 | 522 | 1999 | ||||||
| Command Points: | 7 | Detachments: | 2 |
So the core of the army is the hard hitting units coming in from reserves. The Terminator bomb is the hammer of the army. You drop them down supported by the Lord, Sorcerer and the Daemon prince who is hopefully in position to fly forward and support them. You cast Warptime and prescience on them. If possible, the Daemon prince casts Prescience as it has an 18″ range, and the Sorcerer casts Warptime as he should be directly behind them when you come in. If needed, the Sorcerer also casts Death Hex on a critical unit. Baring this, you can give the Sorcerer Delightful Agonies and further boost the Terminator’s defense.
The Terminators should now be just over 4″ away from the enemy. With Prescience on them they cannot overheat shooting at targets that don’t have a -1 to hit or what have you, so overcharge away! You use the Veterans of the Long War stratagem on them for +1 to wound (if needed) and double tap your overcharged Combi-Plasma. With the Jump Pack Lord also behind them giving them rerolls 1’s to hit (and they’re now hitting on a 2+), and +1 to wound, they tend to melt their target. Combined with Death Hex, I have one-shotted a Knight with this combo before (as overcharged, with VotLW they wound them on a 3+!). At the end of the shooting phase, for laughs, pop the Endless Cacophony stratagem and shoot them again; still benefiting from all of their buffs, lol. Even things like Conscript screens evaporate to this as you pump out 40 Plasma Gun shots from a single unit in a single shooting phase.
Then, you clean up targets with your Raptors who should also be benefiting from the Lord’s reroll aura. Berzerkers and DP are coming up in wave two and CSMs in their Rhino (both units ride in the same Rhino) hunt objectives.
In the charge phase, your Terminator Bomb then assaults a unit as well (which they typically make the charge due to being so close) and with your Lightening Claws plus another application of the Veterans of the Long War Stratagem (you can use it in both phases) and rerolls to wound, possibly still rerolling 1’s to hit if you are in range of the Lord and still hitting on 2’s thanks to Prescience, they shred their target more often than not. It is savagery at its finest!
Then the magic really starts to happen as your opponent starts taking morale checks with stacked negatives due to the Night Lords legion traits. If your Lord is in range with the Lord of Terror trait, units will just melt away when they have a static -4+ to their morale check. It’s brutal. This is all in one turn as well, mind you!
In their turn, if they disengage the Terminators to shoot at them, pop the In Midnight Clad stratagem for a -1 to hit on them to increase their durability and save 1-2 CP to control their morale as they will get hit with everything your opponent has to throw at them. Luckily, they’re Terminators and not easy to destroy!
The Terminators will continue to cause disruption but typically will get worn down. Lucky for you, wave two consists of 3 characters, Berzerkers, and Raptors! Once all of those units get stuck in, the Night Lords morale debuff really starts to punish your opponent. Raptors also have a -1 Ld debuff and you can give one of them the Mark of Nurgle and the Icon of Despair for another -1. Consider also a Decimator Engine with Butcher Cannons for additional leadership debuffs. If you need to, you can also kit your Sorcerer up to be a character assassin with psychic powers to snipe them out (as again, psychic powers target any unit in range and LoS unless they state otherwise).
The havocs hold your home objective and provide decent fire-support. You could swap the two Autocannons for 4 Heavy Bolters for more Dakka, I just use them because I have them painted up and the look cool =)
In play-testing, I have had tremendous success with this list. By no means is it unbeatable, but the potential for devastating damage output is high. It has a lot of failure points, too. If you fail to get some of your psychic powers off, the strategy can fall flat. If you play against an army with loads of deep strikers also and they go second, it can be bad. If your opponent has infiltrators to push back your deep strike strategies, it can muck you up, too. But, the list is fun, effective and uses some of my all time favorite models! I’m considering dropping the Havocs for more Cultists but it’s a tough choice with no morale control on them. But, it is nice to have buffer units to keep the enemy off of my backfield units.
This is just one way to play Chaos, too. The book is loaded to the gills with lists and combos like this for CSM players of all varieties. It is truly a great time to be a Chaos player!
What combos are you all seeing?
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Awesome review.
Question I have for the new daemons, as they are in the marine codex which is a new thing…. Do they replace all the daemon datasheets in the indexes? e.g. are Bloodletters 7pts for solo daemon players? and Brims 3pts etc etc
oops, forgot about rules about not posting point values, please edit Reece 🙂
You can post points, all good =)
They do.
Reece, what if GW gives express permission for pure Daemon players to use the index rules/stats, similar to how Dark Angels only use index points/stats?
Super hyped for the CSM dex. I’m just worried that Oblits having assault 4 guns is a typo and will get errata’d…
It’s not a typo =)
Awesome, that’s great to hear!
=)
I had the exact same worry. Happy to hear this was intentional.
Been very happy with what I’ve seen so far.
So you mention cult marines as troops. So can World Eaters and Emperor’s Children still take their cult marines as troops?
Also as a Word Bearer I think people that keep dissing summoning forget that daemons don’t deepstrike on their own anymore. Love that relic.
Summoning is very good. The top Daemon player at the BAO had 600 pts of his list in his summoning pool. I often summon in a big unit of Bloodletters in my faux-KDK army and they are extremely good.
Would agree. I think a lot of people are missing that you don’t have to pick what you summon until you roll and it can be essentially anything. Soul grinder, demon prince, 20 to 30 bloodletters, whatever you need.
Thinking about putting together a summoning heavy Renegades list. Malefic lords and commanders are good cheap summoning characters and the Lords are frankly dumb even without summoning.
Also wondering about whether or not cult marines as troops is still in the book
You should do an article about summoning. People overall still think it is worthless and cant figure out why anyone would ever want to summon.
I think the Bloodletters are now very reasonable. Genestealers do 0.11 damage per point. Bloodletters do 0.139. That’s not taking AP into account as well… However they are really slow and more vulnerable. And if you plan to summon them, you have to set aside points, get a specific dude for summoning them, maybe summon skulltaker for help, don’t fail the 8” charge etc. I think they are the only Khorne unit in a good place right now. (DPs don’t cont)
I think they’re a bit too cheap, but not game breakingly so. I do have to say though, when you summon in 30 and they charge…very few things can withstand that.
I’m intrigued by the renegade tactic for an infantry-heavy army with lots of assault weapons and CC troops. Renegade possessed or zerkers can have pretty frightening threat ranges, and even regular CSM might want to take chainswords most of the time; they’ll be able to do 7e-Eldar style tricks with assault weapons, then charge.
Sort of the CSM equivalent of BT. Sounds entertaining.
Heck with the exalted champion & dark Apostle Combo now existing renegade cultist hordes are pretty scary on based on re-rolls alone.
Certainly able to absorb some overwatch fire before Possessed do their part by being even scarier.
Yeah, no kidding. The Cultist assault army would be quite good if a bit cumbersome to play.
I’m currently pondering a mix and match list, EC bringing a bunch of noise marines and havocs for fire support (and Lucius, because he’s a reasonable puncher/buff aura for his cost), and then a shitload of renegade cultists and infantry to run at the enemy screaming.
Hey, it works for orks. CSM definitely seem to love their infantry.
120 assault armed Cultists re-rolling hits and wounds do 20 wounds to an Imperial Knight or terminators, I guess it’s even more if you account for the pistols on the way in… without the buffs only 8.
But the 240 Cultists plus supporting pieces would have some major issues, such as if the opponent had ranged weapons, lol
And assuming you can get all of them into melee range.
Thing is, CSM can just pay points to get a banner that allows re-rolling failed charges as well if they’re Khorne.
IMO it’s much better to pay the points for that and be World Eater ‘zerkers that get a bonus attack (twice). Worth a lot more than using your chapter tactic on something you can just buy.
Nevermind me… forgot renegades is not like BT. It allows advance and charge, not re-rolls. Which means you can combo the two for awesomeness.
One question: do CSM get an equivalent to the new SM “obsec except not”?
They do indeed.
So do grey knights so this might be standard for codex armies.
Ya this is a bit weird they didn’t include this troops rule in the index as it is literally very unbalanced for games that don’t have it currently. So we are all at the behests of which codex is released. I’ve literally lost games with having a much larger and closer unit (I played orks) to the objective just because I couldn’t kill off the last 1-2 marine models in range of an objective.
I would assume GW is aware of this imbalance and has plans to address it.
I’m wondering if it’s going to specifically be a power armor thing, to help counteract the advantages of swarm infantry.
it more than counteracts it tho… it negates it altogether!
Weird that chaos gets good psychic powers while SM gets basically watered down versions of the chaos ones.
SM also doesnt get any cheap cannonfodder units like spammable cultists/deamons.
Oblits also seem to be useful versions of centurions that nobody ever takes due to retarded point costs.
Are these two codexes actually balanced against each other?
Well it makes sense. SM have stronger units, CSM have stronger psykers
Do CSM have weaker units?
They have weaker squad control for sure. I.E. – they don’t get a native re-roll of morale unless they are word bearers. Representing the more fickle nature of their bands. Also they don’t have the disciplined combat squads or other such rules. And they’re using older tech for the most part. So they don’t get quite as many shiny guns/vehicles.
Hence why the things they do have, should be a bit stronger relative. And stronger psykers definitely makes sense.
Oh I would LOVE to get autocannon devastators instead of those “hi tech” plasmacannons.
Besides, it seems only a matter of time before chaos will get access to “primaris” squads too.
Fucking finally.
Seriously, this was the thing I most disliked about the 6e book.
“Sell your soul, and in exchange get a bunch of terrible witchfire powers that you’ll just ignore and roll on telepathy anyways. Also, while you’re calling on the raw power of the warp and using it to fire spells roughly equivalent to frag grenades in impact, your loyalist rivals get to launch units across the board and move terrain features around like they’re nothing, plus they get the best of the Eldar powers to boot. But yeah. Sell your soul. Such power.”
Considering this edition makes the whole ally thing vastly easier. I don’t think the imperium will have any issues vs chaos. As the imperium still has the best cheap cannonfodder units.
Oh and as for my deleted wargear question and gw contradicting themselves on it..I take it there is no real answer to that until geedub faqs the mess themselves. Or?
Isn’t that answered in the codex FAQ?
There’s no deleted question – you posted that on a different article.
And that’s not a contradiction. If a unit has a newer datasheet you use that. If the newest datasheet for a unit has a slightly different weapon profile than a different datasheet then you still use the original datasheet until a newer one is published or something is FAQed.
In both cases you’re using the newest datasheet for a unit and everything that comes with it. No contradiction there.
Yes there is:
This is what GW has so far written themselves on this matter:
1:
“Can I combine units from the index and a codex into one army?
The datasheets in the new codexes overwrite the same datasheets in the index books. You can certainly use units with updated datasheets alongside units from the index that have yet to be updated. Once a unit has been covered in the codex though, we assume you’re using the latest version.”
Clearly saying a new datasheet overrides an older so no librarian stormshields or heavy flamer turrets.
But from the same article..
2:
“There are a few options that are missing in the codex that appear in the index: why is that? Does that mean I can’t use these models in my army anymore?
While the indexes are designed to cover a long history of miniatures, the codexes are designed to give you rules for the current Warhammer 40,000 range. There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.
Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).
They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army.”
This time clearly you can use older entries (dreadnought/wargear given as example).
He said the same thing in reply to you. There isn’t a conflict here. If you have a model that has wargear no longer supported by the latest datasheet then use the old datasheet and the newest points.
You have to use the new datasheet if there are no missing wargear. Like daemon troops. No missing gear so only use new datasheet.
So when a razorback is missing its HF but in the previous edition there is one GW says two different thing:
1: New datasheets override.
2: Doesnt matter since you CAN use old missing wargear if you have the piece.
How on earth is this not a contradiction?
So answer me this then using the two gw quotes from above. CAN I or cant I use HF turrets on SM codex razorbacks?
If not why, gw says I can use models/wargear that is removed IF I have the old pieces made.
Yeah you can use any option for a razorback that the index supported.
The rule is to prevent people from using a broken version of a datasheet after it has been needed (horrors) not to invalidate older models. Now will that carry over into the next edition without new model support? Probably not.
Looks awesome!!!
It indeed, is =)
A mark of Khorne Lord running a Slaaneshi army? tsk tsk…
lol, it is a mixed chaos army, much like the Night Lords novels =P
But I have a mix of units in there. I may make some of the Raptors Nurgle for the Icon of Despair for another -1 ld debuff. Plus, obviously, the Berzerkers are Khorne, too.
How about some chaos spawn unless the book changed them they have a leadership debuff and they hit pretty hard.
Yeah, solid!
I dig it.
Makes me excited for my Daemon codex.
However, as they change and will likely continue to change, I really, really, really wish I had another troop choice besides horrors so I wasn’t stuck in this weird limbo of either using the “omg brimstones opop” troop choice or the pretty garbage and expensive pink horrors splitting.
Oh well, time will tell.
With the points reduction, pinks aren’t all that bad. I haven’t seen it yet but I’m assuming they still get the ranged weapon which means they get to smite and shoot. Not terrible.
It’s the exact same point cost for the full unit, though. Still 240 points.
Sure, I’ll offer it’s not TERRIBLE, but it’s still bad.
I just hate that it’s my only choice if I want to play Tzeentch. Because I either pay 720pts for TROOPS in a Batallion, or people complain Brimstones are too strong.
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
Just lemme use Tzaangors or something, GW.
Brims went up in price AND they are significantly worse offensively. No one has a right to complain about them anymore. They cost the same as a conscript and basically all they offer at this point is a 4+ invul meatshield. Only cause a mortal wound 1/3 of the time and they have very little synergies unlike Conscripts who can be taken in morale-immune blobs of 50 and can be given orders to make their weaponry actually hurt.
Oh, trust me. I agree.
It’s a little sour grapes when you’re told you’re winning on the back on Brimstones, however. I’m content with 3ppm and their shitty smite.
Oh, Brims are still too good for the points, lol, but the crazy disparity is reduced. Conscripts are too cheap, too for that matter.
3 pts is still a great get for their durability (4+ invul is nothing to sneeze at) but they rightfully got their offense neutered and cost 33% more. Still powerful? For sure. But it’s in a much, much better place.
“Khorne Lord of Skulls: saw a massive points reduction! This big guy is even more potent now than he was.”
You would think after an entire edition of costing 888+ points, GW would have learned their lesson… but I guess not. Better late than never, though!
If just one time I could put this guy on the field and not get tabled, that would be awesome.
He was already given a point reduction in the index and was awesome, a friend of mine runs one and he’s brutal, goes through IK as if they were made of butter. If they have reduced his points further… He’s going to be a serious threat.
Well I would hope he tears through an Imp Knight in close combat. Even using his worst guns he comes in at over 600 points and he’s only got a few more wounds than an IK (rest of his survivability is the same). And with only a 10″ move he needs someone that can cast warptime on him to reliably actually get into close combat
Using his good weaponry he’s currently 720pts which is a big investment.
Decent shooting, good survivability, and awesome close combat are obviously going to be expensive. He costs more than an IK because he gets two big guns BESIDES his double-profile close combat weapon, and is much better than the IK in combat, with more attacks and strenght, which additionally increase in number as he looses wounds instead of going down. He also has some cool special abilities so his only real problem is mobility and, as you have already said, warptime is a solution to that, and not a difficult one by the way.
Know the feeling. Running LoTD and redeemers tends to make you sympathetic to 888 point I-need-to-be-tabled models.
I know this book doesn’t include T-sons and Deathguard, but the original index didn’t give t-sons their own discipline (they just generated powers from the Dark Hereticus tree). Can I take t-sons psykers and use the new full tree for now (until they get their own book)? Or am I limited to just the three powers in the index?
The strategem that lets a chaos infantry/bike/dread +1 wound is actually broken.
Salamanders have this but it is restricted only to flamers and people are recognizing it as borderline op. Chaos get it for every tactics unit.
Oh and yes, there is a nice contradiction as mentioned in a reply to you a little above. You follow the newest datasheets EXCEPT when you DO have older wargear then you can choose to STILL use them.
It’s only one unit per turn, not the end of the world :p
Yeah, that is the limiter on it. And it is per phase, not turn, so you can use it in the shooting phase and the fight phase.
It is very powerful, but not broken.
coupled with the endless cacophony its actually pretty powerful. A five man havoc squad with plasmaguns & a lord nearby can put Guiliman in one shooting phase very reliably, or take more than 50% of the wounds off of a single knight titan – not sure if these are great uses of 3 CP but they’re just examples of what kind of mischief you can get up to.
I tend to slightly agree, but I don’t think it’s that bad. It currently has its own restrictions compared to salamanders as you must spend CP on strategems to give a single unit +1wd to EITHER shooting OR assault for one phase. Compared to salamanders who have this on all flamer/melta wpns all the time without CPs. So people are running around right now with 6-12 cp depending on thier detachments and not all of those points will be used on this strategem. It’s a lot more restrictive then you are making it out to be.
Wait, so are Daemons in the Codex? Are they getting their own?
The only Daemons in the book are Bloodletters, Horrors, Daemonettes and Plaguebearers.
During a regular game turn you cannot use the same stratagem twice in a given phase. Is Forward Operatives an exception because its pre game? Can you set up as many units as infiltrators as you have command points for?
That part is a bit hazy but I believe yes, you can use them pre-game as many times as you want. Will confirm.
Would be ridiculous if say, raven guard could infiltrate 6 units before the game.
Looks to me like they can. The rule of one specifically says it doesn’t apply to stratagems that are not used in a phase such as those that go before the game begins.
There is no “pre-game phase”, so I would say it is not limited by the once per phase rule because it actually has no phase. It might be adressed by GW though, but I beleive this to be intended…
The BRB says this explicitly. Under the matched play section which restricts to 1 stratagem it says this does not apply to stratagems that are used outside the normal course of a game (AKA – before or after game starts/ends)
Thanks!
There you go =)
Interesting that Mutilators with the Renegade trait are pretty viable now. Teleport in, advance, then charge. 3 units and Sorc in Termie armor is only 738 points.
Spice with marks and psychics to taste. I’ll have to toy around with more combos once I get the ‘dex, but it ALL looks good now. Which is awesome to see.
You cannot advance after coming in form reserves. Warptime though, allows you to.
Ah, sorry I’ve only had a couple of games of 8th and haven’t really teleported anything yet. Thanks for the clarification.
Warptime seems to be the bomb all around.
Can you advance with the warptime power? It specifically says you might *move*. I’ve seen this discussion rise before, but I haven’t found a clear anwser still, so it would be great if you could give me one or pass the question to the GW overlords.
You can move again with Warptime, not advance, it’s in the spell decripotion and pretty clear.
Warptime allows you to “move as if it were the movement phase.”
When I move in my movement phase I can declare that I’m advancing and move further.
“When you pick a unit to move in the Movement phase, you can declare that it will advance.”
Don’t see why I couldn’t do that with warp time considering, as stated above, warptime says I can move as if I’m in my movement phase and part of that is the ability to choose to advance.
You can move and advance with Warptime.
Look at it like your two options are, A: Move or B: Move and advance (together), as opposed to A:Move or not, then B: Run or Not.
Weird that chaos gets far better psychic powers then SM.
Better infiltrate then SM, better mirror strategems/tactics etc.
What gives?
You who have both codexes and/or have tried them out what is your unbiased opinions about the balance between these two dexes? At fist glance it seems SM are watered down CSM strategy/psychic wise.
Should we assume oblits are as ridiculously overpriced as cents too?
Loyalist marines get primaris units and imperial soup allies over Chaos marines.
Yes if you are forced to take allies. Far from everyone likes to be shoehorned into allies and speaking of..chaos can play that game too with deamon soups.
Jesus Christ dude, lighten up a little? I don’t read those comments all too often, and pay heed to names of commenters even less, but even so I’m noticing that all you do is be publicly miserable. Smile! it’s a fucking game! And a pretty good one, finally. 😉
This…
Suffering from selective reading I see. Try again.
And who cares as long as the armies are balanced. I can cry how my fluffy desthwing dark angels with only terminators are not balanced with every codex but that’s my choice to play that way. The fact is imperium is very strong right now and chaos with these buffs are likely still not displacing them. Instead people will have more fun and balanced games.
So can CSM still take chaos daemons like plague drones and seekers? Or is it strictly troops now/ have to take seperate battalions?
You can still take ‘Chaos Soup’ if you’d like. However, if you want all your sweet legion bonuses you will have to make sure everything is in separate detachments. For example – if you’re playing Black Legion with some daemons then you need to make sure the Black Legion is all in one detachment and the daemons are in others in order to still get the Black Legion bonuses.
So slaanesh daemons have to be seperate from emperors children for example? :-/
Yes they do, unfortunately. Thankfully daemons are pretty easy. Just take one herald (or other HQ) and you are basically free to take whatever else you want. It will likely be able to fit in one of the detachments.
Also you can summon them mid game if you don’t want to bring a herald.
Yeah, but just put them in another detachment of summon them.
You can but you lose the CSM faction keyword.
Looks awsome as a whol! Altough still to cheap for T3 4++ brims. Should have double the cost atleast. You didnt take em for their smites primaraly anyway. Still no problem to flood the board with em making for some realy dull games. Why on earth double the cost of flock, negate the storm Raven spam and then only raise the cost by one on the other realy big broken unit in 40k. Ppl saying this setteled the matter on brims i guess are brim players. This Change wont effect the outcome. Were still gonna se about the same spam of em. Realy bad work.
It is a start, and it does help. It’s a 50% increase in cost, so you have to drop things to take as many as you did.
If Horrors get gutted too strongly you remove Tzeentch as an army without giving them another troop choice.
I think you’ll find this change means people won’t be taking hundreds of them, but I never saw anyone doing that regardless.
So, any ideas when we’ll see some love for the Sons of Magnus and the filthy Plague Monkeys? Also, I take it this codex doesn’t have all of the Daemon Bad Boys, just the troops?
I haven’t seen the book yet, but per one of GWs articles on it (I think the Word Bearer one) they said that only the basic troops are in here. Mostly because they are the easiest thing to summon so its a handy reference if you don’t want to have to constantly flip between two books.
I haven’t heard anything about t-sons but Death Guard was mentioned by GW as one of the first four codexes. Well we’ve got the other three now. So, given they want to release 10 before year end, that means it should only be a few weeks before DG get their love.
Do we have any info on what marks of chaos do in game yet?
They have no direct effect but allow you to use other abilities on the units with them like psychic powers, stratagems, etc.
Excellent review. I have a question though. I know that the new codex has the cult units as Elites now. The Chaos index has two data slates for the cults units Elites and Troops in the appropriate legion. Can you still use the troop data slate to take Noise Marines in a Emperor’s Children list?
This is a good question. My first instinct was to say in my opinion use the updated dataslate, but then I remembered Iron Priests from 7th using the same named dataslate in two different force org slots.
Ah, no, you cannot. I goofed on that one.
Doesn’t the index datasheets for troop noise marines and Berserkers being slightly different still make them legal such as them being battlefield roll being troops instead of elites and having different keywords ?
This is a really important question we’ll need clarity around. The argument for it, i’d say, is that more importantly than the dataslate itself, are the pages that describe how you build either a EC, TS, WE or DG Legion detachment. If the index is still valid ( it is) then why cant we follow those rules for building a detachment? The only thing that stands out to me distinctly was their decision ( or mistake) to have left these pages out of the codex.
I don’t see how this replaces the daemon part of the index. I don’t plan on buying this book. Maybe Gw wanted to nerf horrors when choas player use them? I don’t know what problem horrors have caused? differently not as strong a conscripts!! I think your wrong mister reecius, Your telling me i need two books now to run tzeencth daemons?
Are emperor’s children any good? I just watched your stream review of the codex and read the article you don;t mention them much in the stream and they are they are the only legion trait you didn’t give an opinion on.
Each chaos faction gets a new strategem. Emperors children might be a top choice for chaos players with the x unit shoots 2x strategem, a fnp psychic power, and i heard there is a relic for the main non death guard non thousand sons based armies such as free relic axe upgrade for khorne. (Tzeentch psychic power for +1 toninvulnerable is confirmed currently). High risk high reward in some tactics.
Im trying out a theory where 10 terminators deep strike with prescience + shoot 2x with a jump pack chaos lord to charge a unit the next turn. Sorceror on bike behind aux. or patrol daemon detachment of seekers. They are surpisingly resilient if you just are trying to soak up wounds, and have good synergy with biker sorcerors/ daemon prince/ lords.
They’re VERY good. I just didn’t have the time to cover everything, sorry.
Thanks for the reply Reecius, i appreciate it I can’t wait to try out the 10 combi-plasma terminator bomb 🙂
It’s sooooo good! lol
I see Word Bearers who want to use Summoning have a disadvantage in that you won’t have as many CP’s. If you’re running a 1500pt army with 500 points of reserve for summoning, you’re going to have a harder time filling out detachments to max out on Command Points.
Eh, it’s not so bad. You get a ton of flexibility in exchange.
Can Magnus take powers from this new Dark Hereticus discipline? As well as the new tzeentch power? If so, excellent.
If you cut the cultists, replace the Havocs with a CSM squad w/ heavy bolter, and give the Raptor melta squad plasma instead, you can give the Zerker champ a pair of claws and fit in a GIANT CHAOS SPAWN! Too bad it doesn’t give a Ld debuff despite being scarier (imo) than a regular spawn.
Yeah, I am still fine tuning the list. Thanks for the suggestions! It is VERY powerful, though, lol. And fun to play.
Definitely looking forward to watching you play that brutal list on stream. I’m assembling some chaos termies at the moment myself but I think I might lose friends if I field them the way you do 😛
I like a lot of the ideas here. I am planning on running a battalion of Emperors Children, a battalion of Death Guard and a patrol of World Eaters… At least that’s the plan. Anyway with the list Reecius compiled in his article I am confused with a few things.
I thought the ‘Terror Tactics’ could only stack to a maximum of -3 to Ld, not -4 as mentioned above. Also, if the Terminators have ‘Emperors Children’ they are able to use Endless Cacophany. But to use Midnight Clad they woulod need to have the ‘Night Lords’ faction key word….
What have I missed?
Still, the idea of using Termies like that is awesome. Nice one 🙂
So just a question for reecius (or anyone). Doesnt a roll of a 1 always fail for hitting, wounding and saves despite any modifiers? Unless im missing something.
It does.
Does that mean that youre still at risk of ‘gets hot’ for the overcharged plasma?
If you have a +1 or more to hit, you cannot overheat, even if you roll a 1.
So a natural roll of a 1 can be modified? Sorry, this is just confusing me a bit.
If you roll a natural 1, regardless of modifiers, you miss. However, the miss can still be modified to avoid things like overheating with Plasma.