Hi, everyone. Chandler here with some input on what is sure to become one of the hottest lists of Newhammer; Tzeentch Flying Circus. In 7th edition I wrote about the Rehati War Sect build, and fortunately, with Newhammer, you can replicate this army only now, it’s even better than before. So, get those demon princes off the shelves, the flying circus has returned. Behold the Crimson King and his flying carnival of death!
First, let’s take a look at the list itself:
2000 Tzeentch Flying Circus
++Supreme Command Detachment++
LOW:
Magnus – 415
HQ:
CSM Daemon Prince, Tzeentch, Wings, Malefic Talonsx2, Warp Bolter – 189
(Smite, Warptime)
CSM Daemon Prince, Tzeentch, Wings, Hellforged Sword, Warp Bolter – 221
(Smite, Infernal Gaze)
Lord of Change with Rod of Sorcery – 350
(Smite, Boon of Change, Bolt of Change)
++Battalion Detachment++
HQ:
The Changeling -100
(Smite, Treason)
Herald on Disc w/ staff of change – 104
(Smite, Boon of Change, Bolt of Change)
Troops:
Horrors 5 pink, 10 brimstone – 70
Horrors 5 pink, 10 brimstone – 70
Horrors 5 pink, 10 brimstone – 70
Fast:
Screamers x3 – 93
Screamers x3 – 93
Heavy:
Burning Chariot – 98
Burning Chariot – 98
Total – 1971
7 Command Points
As you can see, it’s full of big nasty fliers, and enough Tzeentch goodness to blow your opponents away in the Psychic phase. Detachment and army building is streamlined and simplified, with only requiring that all units throughout the army share a single faction keyword. In this case, they all share two being Chaos and Tzeentch.
The Supreme Command Detachment gives you +1 command point and allows you to take up to 5 HQ choices 0-1 elite and 0-1 Lords of War. This is your “Rehati” detachment essentially. Only now it’s even better because you can throw the Lord of Change in the mix! In this list we are using Chaos Space Marines demon princes with Mark of Tzeentch (turning them into psykers naturally.) These work better than their Chaos Daemon counterparts because they have both the Character keywords and only 8 wounds, meaning that they cannot be targeted by shooting attacks unless they are the closest enemy model. This is huge as it allows them to fly around and blast things, or engage light tanks and troops.
Chaos Space Marine Demon Princes are incredibly nasty, especially with malefic talons, as they are rocking an incredible amount of attacks hitting on 2s and re-rolling 1s due to their Prince of Chaos rule. This also works for the Screamers that will be running out front of them in this list as well because they have the Daemon keyword and are devoted to Tzeentch. The idea here being to move the screamers out front to provide a wall, and blast things with Smite, which is particularly nasty, while preparing to engage their choice of targets on the board. One of them should have Warptime, just in case you really need to scoot across the board to engage an enemy, while the other has Infernal Gaze for a little more mortal wound action. And that really is the key to this entire army; mortal wound batteries.
Magnus is amazing in 8th edition. His ability to allow Thousand Sons models within 9″ to re-roll invulnerable saves of 1s will help keep those demon princes alive as they zoom across the board. His close combat attacks are quite devastating coming in at STR 16 with -4 AP and 3 damage each with 2s to hit re-rolling 1s. He is one of the most brutal close combat units in the game. And should he get engaged in combat with an enemy you’d rather not fight, on your turn you can fall back and continue on blasting things with his psychic attacks. His ability to blow things away with Smite is brutal. He adds +2 to his psychic and deny the witch tests to start, which means you only need to roll a 8 or higher on the test to sling out 2d6 mortal wounds! He is not unkillable by any stretch, but with 18 wounds and a 4++ re-rolling 1s on invulnerable saves, he can soak some damage up.
Then there is the Lord of Change with his Rod of Sorcery. This extends his Smite range to 30″ which is huge. With his movement, there simply is no escaping his power and because he can also add +2 to his psychic tests like Magnus, on a 9 or higher he’s tossing out d6 mortal wounds to the enemy from long range. He’s not a bad combatant either if worse comes to worse. Like Magnus, however, he has a lot of wounds which means no hiding him from enemy shooting but with a 4++ save and 16 wounds he can hang in there for a while.
Next we move onto the Battalion Detachment. The Changeling is a fantastic HQ for any Tzeentch army. Any time an enemy targets a Tzeentch Daemon unit within 9″ of him they suffer a -1 to hit modifier. That is fantastic as he can provide that aura for most of your horrors and your chariots in the first turn. The Herald here runs along with one of the Princes and the screamer escorts to provide them with a +1 to their strength as well as being able to cast Boon on them making them even nastier. On top of that the Staff of Change upgrade increases the range of the Herald’s Smite power from 18″ to 24″ making him much more flexible. He can only cast a single power each turn, and Smite is usually his best option with the Staff.
The horrors in the list serve as cheap troops with 15 of them per squad, all with a 4++ save, it makes them incredibly difficult to remove, especially with the Changeling’s aura. And even though they are only using one dice to do so, they are still capable of using Smite, and Pink Horrors shooting is not terrible either. The Brimstone horrors are here to allocate wounds to in order to keep the Pinks alive.
Lastly, we have the Burning Chariots. These things have a great movement, and some nasty shooting as well. And if they get charged, the Exalted Flamer can use his Pink fire of Tzeentch in the shooting phase with d6 shots, STR 5 and -2AP auto-hitting it’s pretty brutal not to mention the free extra attacks from the chariot’s screamers. They also have good mid-range firepower to lay down some damage on tanks as well.
This army is all about moving up the board and laying down massive amounts of mortal wounds and positioning the demon princes to chew through troops. As you move upfield you focus down big targets with Smite and engage the troops with the demon princes to wipe them out. The army also comes with 7 command points, which is fantastic as it gives you the option for those critical re-rolls for a psychic test or to interrupt a charging attack to swing with some of the big heavy hitters. Expect to see lists like these creep into the top tier in Newhammer.
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Had Magnus perils 3 times last game I played. Even used command re-rolls and he still did. Each time it did 3 wounds. The last perils killed him and his nearby friends.
Wow the luck on that one.
Good to get it out of your system early on 😉
Don’t buy lottery tickets or stand out in a storm 😛
So you can take csm and cd in the same detachment fince they both have the “chaos” keyword? I thought there would eventually be some tule restricting a detachment to a single book, otherwise how are orks, tau, and necrons expected to,compete with “imperium” armies that can cherry pick the best units from 10 codexes?
You can cherry-pick but you will have zero synergy as command abilities for say ultramarines won’t work on skitarii and so on.
That’s true, but in most games I’ve played the command buffs aren’t close enough to effect the whole army anyways. Also, how would this work for things like khorne berserkers? Would literally everyone say they are World eater Legion and thus are always troops, even if the rest of the detachment are a different legion?
Not quite zero synergy in some cases. Technically “daemon engine” units from CSM have both the Tzeentch keyword (from Mark of Chaos) and the daemon keyword even though their daemon keyword is just in the keywords section – not the faction section.
So any tzeentch daemon HQs that affect “Tzeentch Daemons” will also affect daemon engines. Good way to get re-rolls to hit on your forgefiends/defilers.
But the lesser synergy is the point of the new keyword association and will be further reinforced once actual codexes get released. You can make a broadly associated army (ex – Imperium or Chaos) but it’s not going to get all the special benefits and synergies that a more tighly focused army will get. This makes it more fair because people can still play “ally” armies which will have access to a wider variety of units but won’t get as many buffs as a more focused list.
I like the list. But does the lack of 4++ on princes and 2 less wounds make up for character ? With only screamers and chariots keeping pace?
Imperium do have a lot of options! But maybe too much choice??
The new Rehati build is indeed super powerful, but it is less flexible than its 7th ed version. I have been running Magnus plus 25 Scarab terminstors and it has been awesome!
Your csm DPs only have a 5++ and I don’t “think” they are affected by the Changling and Heralds buffs. Don’t have my book on me tho.
CSM daemon princes get the Tzeentch keyword (via ) and have daemon keyword as well. So anything that affects Tzeentch Daemons is going to affect them.
The requirement is not for a keyword, but CLEARLY for a faction. Every faction Tzeench Daemon unit get the aura from Changeling. CSM units dont. It is absolutely obvious so dont try to bend it and cheat.
That’s actually not how keywords work. If a unit has the required keywords then an ability works for them. Same way in AoS. Chaos does have some synergy cross faction and a daemon buffing a daemon makes perfect sense. I’d need to see the specific unit rules to he sure but from the description it sounds fine.
It’s so absolutely obvious? News to me because what you’re considering “absolutely obvious” is absolutely, blatantly incorrect.
Straight from the BRB on the Datasheets page (pg 175):
“All datasheets have a list of keywords, sometimes separated into Faction keywords and other keywords. The former can be used as a guide to help decide which models to include in your army, but otherwise both sets of keywords are functionally the same.”
So when my heralds say they “add 1 to the Strength of all Tzeentch Daemon units within 6 inches” that means anything with the keywords Tzeentch and Daemon counts. The game does NOT distinguish between faction keywords and regular keywords in any way except when organizing your army into detachments. Therefore any Heretic Astartes unit that has both the Tzeentch keyword (from ) and the Daemon keyword is affected by those auras in the exact same way daemons are.
*from Mark of Chaos
The blog ate my words because I put them inside brackets
Moridan they are, if they take the mark ot Tz they gain keyword tzeentch and they are demons so they get both buff, from changeiing and herald,
They get the buff of +1 str and Changling – but again are a 5++/3+. Not being targeted is good but there is the question on if just having more wounds and a 4++ worth it. Will see if they get Daemon abilities in a book release.
Not enough Brimstones. I played against a list that brought ~10 units of Brims with only one upgraded to a Blue, they just covered the board and with a 4++ they’re quite resilient to even mass shooting (which of course means you’re not shooting at Magnus and can’t shoot at Changeling/Princes).
Tzeentch is a powerhouse in this edition.
Needs more Exalted Flamers.
😉
Looks good, though.
i dont understand how it could possibly be considered better? Even with more wounds the loss of hitting on 6s the flying demon princes and magnus is a huge blow, the limit on spells is a blow, the loss of re-rollable 2+ invul is a massive blow. Outside of a tournament i basically would refuse to play a flying caster type army in 7th because it was anti fun, but this army, id have no problem facing it anytime even on a clubday at my store.
The 2++ reroll save was terrible, terrible, terrible and good riddance, haha. I see your point but thank the Emperor awful game mechanic is gone (as you pointed out, it was so no fun). Hitting on 6’s was also silly.
So, letting go of 7th as that is all history, in 8th, this list is actually very solid and derivations of it will rise up quickly in the meta, I think. And as you noted, you’d actually be fine playing against it, which is mega, super important. If it is better or worse is a moot point, honestly, but I understand why folks make the comparison.
Don’t look at it compared to 7th look at it compared to other 8th edition armies.
I am running 3 Onagars with Icarus along side my Knights… I’d be ok with this, lol
So the cancer of 7th edition is even more toxic in 8th ed, and we should be happy because…?
You can kill it now, which is much better. Still hits mega hard.
4++ on everything (even the 2 point Troops) does make it one of the most resilient armies out there right now. It’s not 2++RR on one unit, but man you need a lot of dakka to put down even just basic units, not to mention big dudes.
Yeah, Brims are way too efficient for the points.
I’m content with my psychic being taken away when suddenly my troop game is arguably better than before. Haha.
lol
I don’t know why you would call that cancer it is using 9 different models, some of which were not even being used before.
At least it is not white scar space marine captain on bike, 5x white scar space marine librarian on bike, lots of white scar space marine bikes.
I think the important part is that it’s 9 different models. Tzeentch approves.
ROFL didn’t even notice that, the chaos gods are smiling right now.
It’s in a better place overall. It’s still strong against other 8th edition armies but it’s not “cancer” like it was before.
No more 2++ re-rollable saves. No more only hit on 6s. No more infinite summoning spam.
That means they can put power into other things that actually have some semblance of counter-play. Leaving it as a strong army but one that can actually be countered rather than watching it fly around you in circles and kill things.
So I have all the models for that list but no Magnus. Think it would function with a Renegade Knight and Belakor thrown in?
There are Tzeentch builds on paper that look absolutely unbeatable, but unlikely to see in practice. 200+ brimstones can be added to early any Chaos build but who has those kind of models even with proxies. On the other hand there is some armies that can shoot 200 brims off the table when you consider morale losses. Also brims don’t get much done. 5+ smite that is easily nullified and str 1 means they lose almost ever combat their in. Not my idea of a fun armor.
Yeah, those masses of Brimstones look scary until you realize that Guardsmen will assault you off the table pretty easily and morale losses stack up real quick.
well,,,, brimstone aren’t there to win combats,they are there to get objectives you have 3dp magnus and loc for that, they soak damage pretty well and screen other untits from unwiling charges, and changeing is a real pain in the ass, some heavy fire armies like IG shoot at them at 5+, they have lot of dices ok but they hit 1/3 of times and you save half of wounds. Cancel from the table 100-120 brimstone isn’t that easy, in particular when you have to deal with 4 MC and smites coming from everywhere. The only thing i dont like are pink horrors (too costly, better use blue horrors) and chariots, i usually play 3 exalted flamers they are not targettable and shoot the same amount of firepower just losing a bit of movement.
btw heralds give horrors +1 in strenght for what that can matter
Here’s a question… do the CSM daemon princes get ephemeral form keyword from the mark of tzeentch, or is that only Chaos Daemons princes?
Goatboy nothing is better in this edition than dont be targeted, so until new demon codex will be released i guess best choice is heretic astartes DP, useless have 2 more wounds and save bit better but anything on the table can fire at you.
Khorne CD Prince hits like a truck, FWIW.
I’ll be dusting of my FW Khornate Prince, time to get some paint on that ugly sonofabitch!
only demons princes from demons get ephemeral form , is clearly state in their profile, CMS DP with a mark become psykers or get +1 attack (korne)
I like CSM princes if you can hide them behind magnus and drakes. Protects them vs turn 1 alpha strikes and assault cannon spam (t7 3+ with regen 1 wound every turn and changeling is quite hard to shift).
CD ones are tougher overall but lascannons will hurt alot.
CD Princes can hit harder, too. It’s a fun trade off, IMO.
Are you referring to the tzeentch buff spell?
You won’t be able to get the Thousand Sons Keyword on those princes if you use the lord of change.
The Tzeentch keyword is granted by the Mark of Tzeentch on your CSM DPs, BUT the Thousand sons keyword (which triggers with Magnus rule, Primarch of the 1k sons) can only be granted from a full 1k sons detachment.
YOu would need to switch out your LoC for another demon prince.
I’ve been playing a similar army and I would also recommend leaving more “reserves points” so you can summon squads of brims and/or replenish your pinks to keep a screen in tact.
Nvm, read it wrong I think?
Yes you did.
As long as it’s a CSM daemon prince, it can have the Thousand Sons keyword. It doesn’t matter if the entire detachment/army is TS or not.
I might replace the Hellforged DP with Belekor. He’s about 18 more points, moves faster, has more 3 damage swings, and rerolls all saves (not just 1s near Magnus)
Flamers might be better than Screamers for the moving screen. They are cheaper, shoot better, same defensive profile, and same speed as your princes.
what is the point to play Belakor in a TZ dedicated list? He re roll saves but is has one point less of armor save, better weapon but for the rest….. i dont see any real point.
That’s assuming he uses the hellforged sword. MOre swings for 3 damage and moves faster.
He has the same buff as the DPs as he allows all demons around him to reroll 1s. He also has essentially the same save 4+/5++ reroll All saves, and doesn’t require Magnus to be 9 away.
Essentially the same unit, just better stats. Fluff aside, it’s just a better option. But I understand if the Fluff is at stake.
He also casts two spells.
The difference in armor save is very negligible. Anything pointing attacks at the DP worth hitting will have ap -1 at least. Not to mention Magnus should go down nearly every match.
Armor save isn’t trivial these days- there are a lot of basic guns out there that are wounding you on 5s, so having that 4+ (or even 3+ if you’re lucky enough to get cover) can make a big difference.
OOh, another thing to point out.
Magnus doesn’t reroll all saves, only invulns.
4++ reroll 1s >>>> 3+
4++ re-rolling 1s is not better than 3+ actually. It’s a 58% chance to save vs a 3+ which is 66%
maybe instead Loc 6 exalted flamers they provide decent anti tank fire and some close support to horrors.
I believe that messes up the detachments as he has them now.
He could move some points around in his horror squads and get 3x 9 brims/1 blue at 23 a unit.
This would allow him to double batallion plus LOW and start with 9 CPs.
magnus can go down… not a problem at all…. the fact is how much time and firepower you need and in the meantime you get barrage of smites infernal gaze bolt of change, and in some lists where for example you play exalted and flamers you bring other firepower to deal with, so for me is opponent spend couple of turn trying to kill Magnus i m ok with it.
Right, that doesn’t change that Belakor > Hellforge Prince.
He casts two spells, this means Smite AND infernal gaze.
There are some popular 3 wound nasties running around. Damage 3 > Damage 2.
Only argument is Cost (down to another 2x Maleftic talons Prince) or Fluff.
Yes but if Be’Lakor casts Smite, Magnus can’t. Rule of one, only one model can cast smite each turn.
Smite is the exception to the rule. Each caster can attempt smite once per psychic phase.
also belakor cant get any bonus from heralds or changeling it’s not a Tz Dp.
Right, he’s a character so if you screen correctly the -1 to hit him doesn’t matter unless people are using snipers on belakor and not the changeling.
As for the +1 str from Heralds. In the off chance that his 1 herald is in range of his DP:
Tz DP: 5 attacks @ str 8 (4 at Dmg 3, 1 at Dmg 2, 14 total if all go through)
Belakor: 7 attacks @ str 7 (6 at Dmg 3, 1 at dmg 2, 20 total if all go through)
Your break point of course here is toughness 8 targets and toughness 4 targets for wounds on 2. Keep in mind herald buff is 6″. It really depends on where that sole.
The big Caveat here is that anything with toughness 8 will also have a 3+ save. Belakor is swinging at -5 AP whereas DP is swinging at -2 AP.
I suppose you could argue that you can buff one DP with the Tzeentch spell “boon of change” but I have one of those in my list already, and can be cast on magnus and with rule of 1 there’s simply no reason for the redundancy.
for what i saw in a couple of games….
Those kind of lists rely a lot on “big bad dudes” suffers a lot infantry spam, in particular who can use very cheap/effective infantry like tyrs or orks, if you cant soak their initial charge you doomed to collapse quickly, your big birds cant stand a lot against 40 genoraptors, 90 hormagants or 90 orks, you need some mass… maybe LOC can go away replaced by some counter charge units like Tzangors or maybe some demonettes.