Please note that Rawdogger writes for an adult audience. Readers beware!
So here we are again, hot off the release of the new Eldar codex and things are indeed as dire as the sages predicted. D Slangin Wraithknights, Scat Attack Jetbikes, and Fast As Lightning Warp Spiders are just the tip of the spear. That is of course the spear that you’ll be removing from your anus presently. I find myself in the familiar position of taking inventory of the models I have and building lists meant to counter the inevitable killer Eldar builds I will likely see on the tournament circuit. As a Space Marine player I ask myself what can my lowly 8 foot super soldier in advanced suits of Power Armor do against such a powerful enemy? We are truly moving into the ascension of the Eldar, my friends. I like to look at it as a challenge. I have always rooted for the underdogs and believe me anyone playing a Space Marine list against a tricked out Eldar/Dark Eldar army in the hands of an experienced player will undoubtedly be at a supreme disadvantage. At times like these, I like to think about what old Jack Burton would do. So let’s tuck that tank top into our acid washed jeans and talk about the anti-Eldar strategies that will get your Space Marine army to those middle tables in no time!
Centurions – Yup we’re starting with these dudes with attitudes. Centurions represent the fastest and easiest ways to deal with Wraithknights, Wraithguard, and Jetbikes. A minimal unit of 3 with Grav Cannons will be putting out 15 BS4 Grav Shots wounding those units on a 3 with a re-roll thanks to the amps. If they are within 12″ you’ll also be pumping out 18 twin linked Bolter shots. Nice one! The caveat with taking Centurions is that you need a good delivery system. Ally you Space Marine army with Blood Angels or Space Wolves and you gain access to drop pods or get Draigo in that sum bitch and you’ll be teleporting around like you just don’t give a fuck. Now that 3 sources are becoming a thing, I would try and find points for Coteaz if you plan on doing the Draigo Centurion star, since you will be seeing a lot of Wraithguard in Webway Portals. This is why I’m against three sources, by the way.
Sicarans – If you don’t already have one of these Forge World tanks I question your tournament readiness, bruh. With a 6 shot twin linked S7 AP4 Rending gun on this bad boy, both bikes and Wave Serpents will be having a really bad day. Yes, I know that jetbikes have a 3+ armor save but shooting these bad boys at a bike unit containing a Farseer and not letting them have their 2+ re-rollable save should be enough to bring a smile to your face and a grimace on the Eldar player’s! Did I mention these dudes were Fast Vehicles? OH YEAH!
Scouts – These guys were good before the Eldar codex and they’re good now. These are now my go to unit. Reece didn’t pioneer this build, by the way, so don’t listen to him say that. If you are going to go with Scouts you need to go in a big way. Three units are the minimum you should take and always give the sergeant a combi-grav. Eldar are going to be great at wiping out hard to kill expensive units with their dirty D and cheap throwaway units with their massed strength 6 shooting. Why give them the opportunity? At T4 and with a 4+ armor save, Scouts are cheap enough where you don’t mind losing them but also have a decent chance to survive. Make them Iron Hands to make your opponent grind their teeth as you’re rollin them 6’s, BRUH! YOU FEEL. NO. PAIN!
Thunderfire Cannons – Yeah they can be one shot’d off the table by a sneaky D in the face, but so can your mom so who cares? What you need them for is their cover ignoring S5 blasts. Again, they don’t necessarily get though the prevelant 3+ armor the Eldar have but they WILL ignore the 2+ jink shenanigans. I would actually take two of these, since the nickname Thunderfail Cannon is there for a reason.
Sternguard – These bros have all the tools necessary to deal with the Eldar. From cover ignoring rounds to wounding anything on a 2+ these guys are your ace in the sleave for taking out those heavy hitter Eldar units early in the game. If they are Ultramarines you’ll also get one chance for them to re-roll 1’s to hit, and if they are in a drop pod (which they SHOULD be) that could be a potentially end of Wraithknight turn 1 if the Eldar player fails enough saves. I usually equip 4 of these guys with combi-gravs.
Tigurius – A solid dude with a cool hat, Tigurius lets you unlock the Divination powers that really put the hurting on the Eldar. Particularly the Perfect Timing power which gives you that sweet, sweet ignore cover. Who cares if the Eldar will have 50 warp charges to your 7? You’ve got that Emperor watching your back, bro!
So here’s the long and short of it. As a Space Marine player you’re going to be outclassed, outgunned, and out maneuvered by the Eldar. Instead of throwing up your hands and yelling ‘fuck it’ while purchasing Eldar at Frontline Gaming’s sweet 20% off GW prices, try to put together a list utilizing these key units and see how you fare.
So what do you say, Space Marine players? What is your tips and tricks for dealing with the new Eldar?
When you talk about the bikes… how about shooting them with small arms fire (or whatever can reach them) and then not caring about them for a turn if they jink.
5-6 bikes with a warlock will clock at about ~200pts right? Just think of what jinking will do to a unit like that. Oh… 24 shots you say? 4 hit? OVERKILL…
Why not just plasma cannon them…? He cannot not jink. Next turn – useless.
sternguard wont kill a WK, thier poison works on a 6:(. grav cents with coteaz is pretty brutal for dealing with wwp wrath guard, It’s one of the reasons I like multiple detachments, it’s almost like imperium gain their strength from their awesome allies ability 🙂
How do you mean they deal with them?
Four of them will carry combi-grav, so they still have some tools (and a fair chance) to get the job done.
Yep. The tools to do about 1 wound to a Wraith Knight in Ruins, which it will be.
6 Squads of sternguard with combi-grav and you are all set.
Aargh I forgot the wounding on a 2+ was a Poison attack. I thought it just wounded on a 2+. The toe in cover shit is ridiculous but then again so are Centurions in Drop Pods so perhaps it’s not so ridiculous to the Eldar player.
That whole toe in cover isn’t in the 7th ed rulebook, is it. I believe it’s a leftover from the 6th ed area terrain rules. Maybe the ITC should make it clear what it means to be in ruins and maybe lower the cover save for models only partially in ruins (or just remove the save completely) .
I agree! I’m sick and tired of people playing Tyranids.
I’m pretty sure you’ll adapt.
Then pick a new faction Hipster!
The toe in cover save is in the Rulebook. PG 108 under Ruins.
No, it doesn’t say that. What is says is that if you are in ruins you get a cover save regardless of whether or not you are 25% obscured. If you are in you get the save regardless how the actual ruin looks like. It doesn’t say that you get a cover save if you are partially in ruins.
I understand what you are saying, but I think it is left open for ease of play.
If i have an 1/8th of a 28mm base hanging outside of ruins am I out? 50% I’m in? if I have 48% of 50 ml or 50% of a 40 ml base? It would start to become really cumbersome, where the idea is if you’re in, you’re in.
If I have a fraction of 1 guardsmen’s base in difficult terrain, even though he’s in a 30 man blob, the blob still rolls to move as difficult terrain. Should not the psuedo area terrrain of ruins and rubble work the same? I think for ease of play it has to. But that’s just me.
I think it’s both ease of play and old habits that does it. I to play that why, but just recently I looked at the rules and started thinking about what they actually say.
The way it is played gives monster (since they are the hardest to place in ruins and rubble) an increased survivability which has led to they dominance on the playing field. Other stuff like walkers don’t get the same bonus and are left looking worse in comparison.
True enough. Walkers seem to suffer in many ways vs monstrous creatures. Also GW were very conscious in 7th to “simplify” terrain, which is too bad in my opinion. I’d definitely be in favour of some more interaction – as in different unit types treating terrain differently… Up to a point. But finding the balance between simplifying cloggy rules and ridding the game of some tactical choice is tricky. Something that I don’t think they’ve done a great job of lately.
re: Tigurius
“Peasant magic! You never could beat me, Egg Shen.”
Like I told my last wife, “Honey, I never play faster than I can see, and besides that, it’s all in the reflexes.” 😉
Look kids this is what happens when you take a book from 4th ed that was a BS 3 army and then in 7th ed make it BS5 with rending vs infantry that in many cases can re-roll to hit and wound.
What are you to do vs this? Get crushed what can you do vs that with all the other stuff they can do. It’s a waste of time.
Is it too much to ask, Thunderfire? Kill them for ME!
That’s my mandatory quote contribution
Thanks for the nice write up. I was already thinking about most of those units as good ways to deal with Eldar especially the centurions. I’m not sure about the part where you state that’s why you don’t like 3 codices. To me multiple codices allow you to deal with armies like Eldar and Deamons who don’t need allies since they possess so many tools. Marines open allies gives them the chance in my opinion. Adepticon allowed muiltiple sources yet the number 1 and 2 army were both single source.
The Sicaran is the best option, and pretty much becoming a staple of any Space Marine force. It’s been out for a while, and good for a while, but with more and more things being able to jink with ridiculous potency (and more anti-flyer stuff out there) it’s starting to show up more on the table.
Even simple things like an auspex can play a role to just reduce a little bit of that save… hopefully it becomes an option for sgts to take in the next rev of the codex… and if only we could put our Centurions in our OWN Drop pods… oh well; another wishilist item I suppose.
Don’t forget about the good ol’ Land Raider Redeemer! No bikes are gonna get close to the objective that thing is on… it was good against Space Marine grav bike spam, and will be against them too. I wonder what would happen if you parked it next to some promethium pipe relays…
Works for non-vehicle units only. 🙁
I think the Eldar codex was actually GW’s way of saying ‘Hey guys, we’ve tried to make Land Raiders and Terminators terrible for years so you wouldn’t buy them but here’s the thing. We broke the mold some time ago. Yeah its completely broken and we are starting to run out of kits. We made this codex so you would never, ever, think about bringing a Land Raider or Terminators in your list again. Now get out there you wankers and FORGE THAT NARRATIVE!’ Or something like that.
I plan to play on tables with LOS blocking terrain(as we should be) and practice placing my models to minimize blasts/templates.
I think Bikes will be more of a problem than blasts, actually. When two of their Jetbikers can take out a Rhino transport in one volley, you’ve got an uphill battle ein freund.
I like this article.
People should be figuring out ways to beat eldar instead of just bitching all the time. Join the space elves or figure out how to murder them and their families.
An article on anti eldar tactics and good units to take against eldar
If an army is faster, more powerful and harder to remove from the table than any other army in the game by a wide margin, there is no tactic that’s going to work very well.
Reinstitute 2+ rerollable saves and unban Invisibility and Daemons can maybe take it on with an Invisible Houndstar flanked by a Screamerstar. But I dropped 40k, so I don’t care no more anyhow.
unnerf invis that is
satire is not strong with this one
I like this article.
People should be figuring out ways to beat eldar instead of just bitching all the time. Join the space elves or figure out how to murder them and their families.
An article on anti eldar tactics and good units to take against eldar would be great. Like. What can tau get/do. Imperium? Orks? They’ve all got something.
What can Orks do against Eldar? Hope for a good sportsmanship score and pray you have a pro painte army to maybe get a prize for that?
Lol!
Orks struggle in general, but….yeah, I got nothing. Stompa gets obliterated by Scythes, Bikers bet out biked…if you go first and have a good shooty army you might be able to get it done.
You forgot the Whirlwind Scorpius, S8 Ap3 Heavy 1+D3 small blasts AV13/11/10 for 125 points add Ignores Cover LoG for 35 points and watch jet bikes melt.
I also want to point out Bikes for delivering Grav. A command squad can take 5 Relentless grav guns for 185 points. Get a 3+ invul and you go 235 and 5+ FNP brings you to a Land Raider. For 15 grav shots with a 30″ range (12″ move, 18″ range).
I also think Rhinos are going to be useful. They’ll give those Sternguard an extra 6″ on the move and if the Rhino is targeted by scythes they can’t shoot the Marines who get out.
I didn’t forget it I just didn’t know about it, lol. As for Space Marine bikes, I like them. I actually am in the camp that the Apothecary can’t take a special weapon so I never do but I do regularly run a command squad with 4. The problem is, their bikes are just going to dump shots into you from 36″ away and if they are wounding you on 3’s how many 1’s and 2’s are you going to roll on 10 armor saves? For me it would be 4 or 5, lol. I have to think about my poor luck when building my lists.
I actually agree as the Apothecary is not a Veteran, but I think ITC allows it so that’s why I gave everyone grav+storm shields. 4 grav guns 3++ 5+ FNP 230 points.
Not really taking the Command Squad for the Jet Bikes, but for the Wrath Knight.
The upgrades are purchased sequentially- you buy him a special weapon while he is still a Veteran and then upgrade him to an Apothecary, since he doesn’t lose any of his gear in doing so.
Upgrades HAVE to be sequential, otherwise lots of things simply wouldn’t work. The fact that it allows some shenanigans like special weapon Apothecaries is just a side effect.
I go off the fact that the Apothecary replaces his equipment for a Narthecium
They actually don’t. “One Veteran may be upgraded to an Apothecary, taking a Narthecium.” No replacements at all, at least in the SM codex.
I think the WW Scorpius is actually 115 pts + 35 for the LoG: Battle of Keylek (Ignore Cover for blasts). Battlescribe repository data has a typo I think.
The experimental version was 115 points, the version in IA2 is 125 points with no FAQ to decrease the cost.
I have no doubt some combination of Imperium battle bros can give a pretty good fighting chance against Eldar. Now for a challenge try it with a faction that doesn’t have a ton of options from battle bros codexes like say Orks 🙂 (Maybe Reece can do that one)
I play Orks and I have no idea how I’m going to deal with scatterbikes. 🙁
I actually think Orks have a better chance against Eldar than Space Marines do. The problem is that people don’t really use them as they should be played, and that is horde mode. I’ve hardly ever seen someone use a true Ork Horde, I’m talking 5-6 units of 30 boys with a power klaw nob spread out over the table. Most people including Reece are into gimmicky formations and other Eldar like trickery. Just ram that green fist down their throat. Drown them in Ork bodies.
Alan Baramojvic won Wargames Con a few years ago with a similar build at the tail end of 5th I think it was. It countered the meta at the time super well.
I also agree horde Orks seem better against Eldar than people think. The D weapons simply don’t matter. Even D scythes are little better than a regular flamer and with a hefty price tag. With the serpent nerfs you won’t have to take 10 mob rule checks per turn.
The bikes are a legitimate problem, but if a horde ork player would find an efficient way to attack the bikes quickly I think they have a winning list.
They have a psychic power that is the apoc blast fleshbane ap3 :)))))))))))))))
Sure, but unless you’re running a Seer Council you probably only have a 50/50 shot of even getting the power, and then you’re putting all of your dice into casting it. And it still doesn’t ignore cover.
And if you are running seer council you don’t have that many bikes. Or you didn’t take a WK, or you didn’t take the flamers.
This is kind of my problem with the criticisms of the book so far. People talk about how insane 60 bikes are or 6 S D shooting units or 5 WKs or whatever as if all of these things are going to be in every Eldar army.
When you point out an actual list, you can’t get all of those things, or at least not much of all. And when you take a little bit of everything the opponent can focus on the parts most threatening and take them out of the game.
Scatter Bikes will kill about thirty Orks per turn (assuming 6×3 of them) by themselves and can easily outmaneuver the Orks. A Wraithknight is likely to kill at least one squad by its lonesome and likely a lot more- even with a S10 Klaw in the unit, your odds of downing it are not good. D-Scythes are essentially Heavy Flamers against Orks, which is not something they like, and if you’re foolish enough to run transports the Scythes will kill the vehicle AND the unit inside at the same time.
That’s not even getting into allies, psychic powers, or anything else. Eldar are pretty well-set to mess up Orks rather horrifically.
Actually, more like 10 orks once you factor in fnp and cover. The matchup overall would likely come down to who goes first I think.
I factored in 5+ cover. If you think you’re going to have FNP on every squad of 30 Orks, you’re dreaming.
The Orks can’t assault on turn 1 and Eldar should be able to easily evaporate the front line of models such that turn 2 assaults are highly unlikely or impossible even with a Waagh. (6″ + 6″ + d6″ + d6″ +2d6″ should not be reaching deep enough into the Eldar deployment zone to reach the bikes.)
Also, AP, even if they were worried about that for some reason, Eldar actually have counter-assault forces that can go in and hold up mobz or beat them outright. Even if they could get close, the Eldar could just assault. It’s pretty rough.
I think for once, we can agree on the likelihood of Ork success against something. Honestly, the only thing that *really* scares me are scatter bikes. Sure, wraithguard are nasty with their d-scythes, but they are still wasting shots on cheap troops. Most of the other options that punish infantry hordes that Eldar have (and, let’s be real, they have a LOT, even Guardians!) are at least somewhat fragile or have short range. Scatterbikes aren’t super rugged, but they aren’t easy to kill either as Orks lack long range AP3, and the bikes are just too fast and have JSJ. Hell, even 2 units of 6 is enough to give an Ork player fits.
To each his own. I still think orks have a good shot though.
Yeah that would be awesome if Jetbikes didn’t move a million inches per turn an can just play keep away and pew your legions into oblivion from 24 inches away.
You mean 36″?
I think the bikes are actually going to be toned down with upcomming releases. S7 Heavy 12 rending from IKs, and 9 S6 AP3 shots from Skittari should rein them in quite a bit.
D weapons I don’t see being dealt with in any meaningful way with upcomming releases, however. That’s what I’d be most concerned with going forward.
The new mech kastelan robots can pump out 24 st6 ap3 shots (12 are twin linked) at 36″ down the table with a min unit of two robots. That might help a bit. T7 3+ MCs
http://m.imgur.com/a/PQi9K
If you’re using the “fire twice” protocol, you can’t move. That lets the Bikes just dance in and out of your 36″ range, shooting you freely but never being shot in return.
Dang!
AP, the dream crusher
Not sure about that. A couple of these CogBoy toys in a dawn of war deployment, sitting on the line will reach deep into the Eldar deployment zone and easily cover midfield objectives.
The rise of cheesedar made me reconsider not running centurion star, just because of wk.
But then a wwp toting dscythes will come down and fLame them.
reece, plz reconsider the change on invisibility.
Or just keep the no range D, Wraithknights will still be awesome with the sword or suncannon and shield, the artillery still has other good gun options, the only in codex unit that would be out of tournament play is wraithguard, it’s not that big of a deal
Oh and hemlocks, but I can’t recall actually ever seeing one being played so no big deal
What if you play Dark Angels?
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Stop laughing. I am serious.
Buy the space world codex.
That one is my favorite…. next to the water world codex of course!
Then you lose extra-hard because bikes and Terminators are basically D-Scythes’ favorite thing in the world to shoot?
Maybe you haven’t met my good friend the Darkshroud. What’re you gonna do when 80 points of 3 shots of pure heavy bolter come at you on a land speeder chassis? Shoot at me with 4+ glances on the 530968 shots from your jet bikes? Maybe you didn’t notice my 5+ cover saves! And don’t even get me started on the Dark Talon because I’ll just be blinding you for days! BWA HA HA HA HA!!!
IMPERIUM NUMBA WUN BABY!!!
Also, I don’t have any Eldar in my play group.
Wow all I’ve gotta say is great article and…. LMAO
Another, if you are not using a sicaran, maybe a relic scorpius. It has d3+1 strong 6 a3 ignores cover blast.
S8 not 6 and ignores cover only if you take the legacy of glory. I mentioned it earlier.
I love your articles, Raw Dogger, so funny, lol!
And I did pioneer the Scout revolution, bruh! Scouts, fo eva!!!
Reece was running scout spam in Rogue Trader, back in November 1988. 😛
I think the obvious answer is ally your marines with eldar lol….In th Grimdark Future of the forty-first millennium every battle is nothing but eldar on eldar….brother jetbike rider against brother jetbike rider….
The Southern craftworlds will rise again!!!
Roofie the Eldar player seems like a good approach, what happens after that is up to you. 30 hard boys should be more than enough.
Or buy him like two or four really heavy drinks “Here is a bottle of Tequila, At My Gamestore we drink an entire bottle before the game, IT is tradition”
Then you drink water, and he eats the worm.
Brilliant article. The sad thing is, not only playing a massive uphill battle against Eldar is not fun, but if you win with Eldar most people won’t respect you much for doing so. I really do wonder what GW is thinking. They had done such a splendid job in recent years in terms of rules reason and gorgeous models.
I think, at least with the Jetbikes, the marketing team might have had a bit too much say in the rules development since there was a new kit that needed to be sold. It’s too bad, I think the bikes would have sold just fine based on their aesthetic and didn’t need the unnecessary buffs.
I honestly think GW does listen to its fans. Like when tournaments started banning the D. So now we have a codex that they make us deal with it and more crazy bits to come. So I think they’re saying don’t limit our game. And have fun. Can’t wait to see what else comes up
Next comes people not playing 40k anymore cause eldar are broken. Nobody wants to see that.
Nobody has said it so I’m going to put it out there, best way to beat the new Eldar with Marines, is the new Eldar as allies!
I think White Scar grav cav might be ok versus Eldar, especially if you can work a librarian in and actually get invisibility and cast it successfully…. Lots points of failure there.
Drop Pods have the ability to focus your firepower where it’s needed and/or directly place a unit to grab a maelstrom objective so there might be ways to use that against certain Eldar builds as well?
Combat squads are a great way to limit damage because scat cav will completely over kill 5 dudes and likewise the Wraith Knight is wasted charging 5 dudes.
The problem is there are so many viable rolf stomp Eldar builds it becomes hard to theory hammer it out unless you know which one you’ll be facing because the solutions change based on the build you’re facing to a certain degree.
One thing for certain is a single unit here or there isn’t going to swing the game in our favor alone. It’s going to take an entire Marine army focused on killing/surviving against Eldar to have a chance against a well played Eldar list.
Coteaz with a draigo/loth/gk lib cent star is either incredible or terrible. I had a game against Eldar the other day where it had the 4+ fnp and eternal warrior psychic power, invisibility, prescience and perfect timing. It was utterly unstoppable. Next game they were thunder blitzed by a baneblade tho. Whoops…