Hey everyone, GTA back after a long time with a after tournament wrap up. Check out the Tactics Corner for more tournament reports!
Sorry for not being able to post any of the other tournaments since but I’ve been really busy between school, work and the girlfriend.
Three days ago I arrived in Vegas with the determination to make it too the finals and party a whole lot with the rest of my teammates and my girlfriend. Well after partying for three straight days full of laughs I’m ready to head home.
I’m sitting here at Las Vegas Airport waiting for my delayed flight home and thought I might be able to write some of these battle reports down before I forget.
After five great games I came up a little too short to make it into the finals. I brought my council with a few changes from my original list I said I was going to bring.
Farseer on Bike with Shard and Runes of Warding
Farseer on Bike with Soulstrive and Wraithstone
10 Warlocks of Bikes
Baron
Venom with Grisly Trophies and Extra Splinter Cannons
+ 5 Warriors
3 x 4 Windrider Jetbikes
2 Wraithknight – Stock
If you weren’t there then let me tell you about what it looked like. The tournament was set up in a huge ballroom that looked huge. Frontline really outdid themselves! Each table had plenty of terrain, with two line of sight blockers on each table and plenty of cover to hide from the heavy shooting armies. The thing that made this tournament so awesome was that every table had a MegaMat on it. This was my first time playing on these things and let me tell you. Wow this Mat is awesome, I can’t wait till my buddy’s MegaMat comes in so we can get come serious gaming in. The tables were really well spaced with the lowest numbered tables being the highest scoring tables and the higher numbers being the lower scoring tables. There was enough room for all three tournaments to be played side by side comfortably.
Game #1
My first game I played Steve Sisk and his White Scar bikers. If there was any other match I was more intimidated by it was this one. Steve had a beautiful army of ultra marine painted bikes, I was really excited to play him though because I’ve been in many of the same tournaments as him before but we’ve never played. I knew Steve was a very good opponent and the group of players in Sacramento that he gamed with regularly were also veteran players. I can’t tell you his exact list because I checked my bag with his list, but I’ll put it up later.
For the player packet with all the missions here’s a direct link:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QXvTi6lkc6XNna0BAbcdfynPTgN_XWYVMGxrb5jq-rU/edit
I’m not going to go through the missions but you can check out the packet to see the mission and deployment type.
In this game Steve went first but night fighting was in effect first turn so it helped me make the decision that going second was actually more beneficial to me rather than going first. For deployment Steve castled in corner with his thunderfire behind the bikes. (After the game I asked him why? He said didn’t want to split his forces to try to negate night fighting.)
I deployed in the opposite corner with my wraithknights out front and my venom and council behind them. I made sure to be out of range out of any of his first turn shooting. I didn’t sieze and Steve started by doing the one thing he could turbo boost up and get in range to shoot me next turn. My turn went quick also besides for a few pot shots from my wraithknights, all my powers went off and so I turbo boost towards the middle of the board. In Steve’s turn two he moved his bikes cautiously up, swung a bike squad around the flank to shoot my wraithknight in cover but did a made a couple cover saves. Steve shot both thunderfires at the baron hoping to instant gib him but I successfully either made his invulnerable or look out sired them onto a nearby farseer. The farseer took two wounds even with being fortuned but nothing more happened.
In my turn I healed a wound back on the wraithknight from the wraithstone and positioned both wraithknights close to the flanking bike squad. I moved the council into range for an assault to multi assault but instead decided to assault one of the squads then hit and run away towards his board edge. In the ensuing assault one of my wraithknights rolled double ones going through cover which ended up being one inch too short. The other got in and made short work of the last three bikers giving me first blood. My council killed the bikers down to a single marine and I when rolling off to see who hit and ran first, Steve won. So I consolidated but I only rolled a 1! this screwed me over now I had everyone in perfect blast template formation for his thunderfires. My knight consolidated towards terrain. In steve’s turn three he laid the firepower down on the council, first off each blast was getting five wounds where he hit, overall I think from the two cannons and all the bikes that surrounded me I lost seven warlocks due to some bad rolling on my part. Then Steve assaulted with all the bikes, I knew that the baron had to survive but Steve had positioned his assaults well so if I had any chance of surviving a 15+ bikers plus a chapter master with thunder hammer I needed to take the challenge with the Baron so I wasn’t completely wiped out. In the assault I lost one warlock and saved all 2+ invulnerables on the Baron. I got lucky and got the chance to hit and run out first, this let me move towards his thunderfires and his board edge.
Then in my turn I moved the remaining council members towards an assault with a two man bike squad on his board edge, the wraithknights assaulted a bike squad in the middle. Both squads were wiped out and I was able to get to where I needed too. Steve’s turn four he ended up laiding down the firepower on the council trying to snipe the wounded farseer next to the Baron and possibly the Baron. I got lucky and made all my saves but he knew he needed to take out the squad so assaulted the last remaining members of the command squad in to finish them off. I took out three of the bikers leaving one remaining, then I hit and ran right next to the thunderfires for my next turn assault.
In my turn I danced the wraithknights around to get some shots on a few bikers making there way toward objectives in the middle, huddled all my guardian jetbikes in the corner of my deployment zone and prepared the council to multi assault both thunderfires. In the ensuing assault I took out both thunderfires and consolidated right into the back of his deployment zone. Steve’s turn five he moved the chapter master towards the remaining two farseers and the baron (yeah that’s what’s left of the council at this point) and decided to assault them. His other bikes jumped onto objectives and did what they could. In assault my wounded farseer tanked all the wounds in CC, this allowed me to hit and run a few inches away and get ready to last turn contest the objectives. On the last turn all hell broke loose I unloaded the warriors next to their objective, split the council, and shot the jetbikes onto as many objectives as I could. My warlord farseer contested his emperors will objective he held and the baron and the other farseer assaulted the chapter master trying to get warlord. The wraithknights shot and assaulted a the last command squad biker contesting an objective in the middle. The biker survived after making all his storm shield saves.
We rolled and it went on, but on two things mattered if he could hold on to emperors will without letting any of my jetbikes onto the objective. He killed my warlord contesting the objective with a lucky krak missile shot from his hyperios defense batteries I ignored the entire game, so my venom took some shots into the squad killed one which allowed me to turbo boost my jetbikes onto his objective. Fortunately for me the game ended. The final score was 9-2.
A very good start to the tournament, as I went around and checked on other players I saw some very good opponents that had really tuned lists.
Round #2
I played a very good player Jason Hickle and his amazing looking Death Korps of Kreig.
Jason was playing a very forge world heavy list that included six thud guns, two medusa artillery batteries, avenger and a vulture. This game we rolled off and I decided to go first, because he had two chimeras with searchlights to illuminate my council so he could thud gun it turn one. I planned for the seize though and lined up my council all along my back board edge. (Can’t tell you how many IG and Tau players have seized on me in the past when I was too aggressive) With that in mind he put his chimeras up the middle and his big guns on either side in the patches of terrain. He decided to seize and lucky didn’t get it.
My turn one I flat out the council up the side of the board that had the thud guns on it, for a next turn assault and moved the wraithknights from cover to cover. I shot with the knights and did two hull points on the lead chimera even through night fighting. Jason moved a tad but mostly shot everything into the council, I lost a warlock and took a wound on one of the knights. In my turn two one jetbike squad came in and I prepared to pounce. With the wraith stone I healed the wound on the knight and moved the council up to assault the thud guns. I moved the knights in opposite directions, one going to tie up the blob squad and the other to take out a chimera for first blood.
That’s exactly what happened I took out the guns, chimera and tied up the blob. Jason’s turn two, he rolled for reserves and got the avenger in, which went right after my jetbikers that just came on the board. Now that the thud guns were gone he decided to unload his remaining chimeras and take shots at my council. This with the medusas killed three warlocks and put a wound onto my farseer. The knight in combat with the blob took four wounds from melta bombs and suddenly I was down to only two left on him, so right away through a renewer and the wraithstone I gained back two wounds.
Then the thing that almost cost me the game happened: I failed fortune. With that I was forced to assault the council into the blob to make sure I wouldn’t get shot at in his turn. I moved the other knight behind the avenger that just came in and missed both even with guide. Two more jetbikes came on and hid from the vulture that was going to come on. In the ensuing assault I wiped out 20+ of the blob and also took out the commissioner, fortunately for me he had a inquisitor left to make the squad stubborn. They stuck and my gamble worked. In Jason’s turn three his chimera went up the opposite flank of the knight toward my board edge where my object. Jason mostly shot at the knight in cover behind the avenger doing a wound or two. He also brought on his vulture to help out with the knight but failed to kill him, the avenger went after another jetbike squad and left one jetbike standing.
In the blob assault I wiped out his last guys and consolidated the knight towards the medusas and the council toward the squads that unloaded out of the chimera. In my turn four my last jetbike squad came on and ducked behind some cover. I fortuned up this time and went after the command squad + two other veteran squads. My knight moved within one of making the assault and the other prepared to take two shots into the rear of the avenger. I got one hit into the rear which forced Jason to jink, he failed but fortunately for him it was only a vector locked result. My other knight assaulted the medusa and caused them to break from combat results.
Then the council tried to multi assault the squads and even with fleet came up one inch too short. In Jason’s turn he brought had to fly the avenger off the board because he couldn’t fly 18 inches and get any shots, so he brought the vulture in to take it’s place, so it could do what the avenger couldn’t finish a biker squad. The council took fire from the veterans with plasma guns in front of them but only lost two warlocks. In my turn five I shot the lone jetbiker across the table to take a three and two point objectives. I also moved the decimated squad of warriors within three of my two point objective and threw the knights at any remaining threats. I shot one knight into the vultures butt and he decided to jink, saving an explosion result. The other knight tried the same thing but failed terribly. Then I threw the council into assault with the three squads, wiping them out easily and consolidating back towards the objective.
In Jason’s turn his turned all his firepower onto taking out as many of the jetbikers and warriors as possible. Unfortunately for him I had lady luck on my side and my squads took a casualty each and stuck their leadership checks. At this point we rolled for an extra turn but we both knew I had it at this point so he called it. The game ended with a 10-0 win for me.
Round #3
So after round 2 I was feeling a little uneasy because my table number was dropping rapidly and the lists were becoming harder match-ups for me too face. This game I played Max Hill. He had a very well built list consisting of wave serpents/wraithguard, two wraithknights, and four spiritseers.
I won first again but decided to give it too him because nightfighting was in effect and I believed I was better at grabbing the relic going second rather than first. Max deployed towards the back of his zone which worked perfectly for me. I counter deployed the council out of range by putting it in the middle of my zone but out of 48 inches of the serpents. I put the wraithknights up front as bait for his serpents and knights to shoot at turn one.
I didn’t seize and watched Max move a little taking shots at the knights but with the amount of cover and nightfighting the knights and serpents didn’t do anything. In my turn I moved the council in a pencil formation up the board with he baron in the back and the farseers in front, I kept the venom behind terrain but within 6 inches of the baron so I could reroll my powers next turn. My knights shot at his and I ended up stripping a wound off the sun cannon guy.
In Max’s turn two he moved his knights in front of his serpents, shot at the council but ended up not doing anything. I started by moving the council into assault range of the wounded knight and advancing my knights towards his other knight. I shot a scored a lucky six on his wraithknight and he failed his cover save and disappeared. In assault I did enough wounds to not kill him so we stayed locked.
In his turn three Max turbo boost one of his serpents towards my deployment zone, shuffled the others around and took some pot shots at the knights. In assault I finished the knight off and consolidated towards his jetbikers and serpents. In my turn I moved my two knights to intercept the serpent and set up the council to multi assault the serpent and the jetbikers that I had just caused to fall back due to terrify from one of my farseers. They assaulted and he failed his morale check killing the bikers and getting me into assault with the serpent. I destroyed it. The knights destroyed the turbo boosted serpent in assault and at this point he ended up calling it. So with that I walked away with a 10-0 win.
Alright before I start about round four, let me give you a little back round. So Saturday morning (Day 2) I got a call from a one of my high ups in my unit telling me that I was going to administratively separated from the navy unless I get some papers to them. They told me to get the papers too them no matter what. Now I’m in Vegas, Nevada and they’re in Alameda, California. I started panicking, I called everyone I knew that was back in California, finally my mother answers her phone, I tell her what she needed to do. Unfortunately for me what seems like something easy to bring up, soon becomes a huge pain in the ass as I start getting calls from everyone in my Navy unit about what is happening.
Round #4
Next thing I know I’m standing across from my round four opponent Adrien Jeaniard with everything but the game on my mind. Adrien was playing a flying circus demon list with three Demon Princes, Lord of Change and of course Fateweaver.
Reece and Frankie allowed everyone that wanted to start early the chance to start early, so I got there a half an hour early just because I knew I might have to make a phone call or two during the game. Now I thought I had everything handled before I got to the game but as soon as I started rolling dice for powers all hell broke loose between superiors calling me and my mother trying to figure out what forms were the right ones. I honestly just totally blanked out and let Adrien roll for everything without looking, I trusted him fully but the problem was that I didn’t have an idea what demon prince had what until I was in assault with him in the game. On top of that I didn’t roll fortune and instead rolled two death missions for both farseers.
So with that in mind I went first and deployed very cautiously but centrally enough that I could get first turn shots from the knights onto the princes and possibly fateweaver wherever they were on the board. With that in mind he deployed behind a tall ruin in the back of his deployment zone keeping all his lesser demons in reserve. About this time I was taking a call so I didn’t know what demon had what. He tried to seize but didn’t do it In my turn one I moved the knights into max range of his lord of change which was on the top level of the ruin. I hit with everything but with hot rolling on his part nothing happened.
I then went ahead and boosted the council in front of the knights acting as a buffer in the coming turn. (Here’s where I made my first mistake, I should’ve realized even with my knights at max range he wouldn’t be able to hurt them in his turn) In his turn since he was too far so he just moved up and cast some powers. Fateweaver casts the grimore on himself taking some shots, and downing the venom.
My turn two I made a huge mistake and moved the council right in front of three demon princes. I thought with the knights shooting one of the princes I could take him down with guide. I was so wrong and promptly missed all shots at the demon prince with everything, I knew this game was over because I kept having to walk away and take calls instead of focusing on the game. I just needed to secure a few points somehow, but then I re decided that instead of going on an wasting Adrien’s time on a game that I couldn’t win I conceded the next turn. I honestly wouldn’t have given up but I was walking away from the table so much that I couldn’t think about gaming while the Navy thing was going on.
So I took a 0-10 loss and surprised a lot of people watching my game. I feel if I didn’t have the distraction of the Navy constantly calling me I could’ve played a more competitive game. I’ve played Jy2’s flying circus before without fortune and I had to play more defensively but I still was able to pull it out both times. Anyway after I got the Navy stuff all done with it was about time for game five.
Round #5
So after my round four performance I suddenly dropped from table two to eleven. Even with a blowout in this game I still had no chance of making the top eight.
My last game was against Mike Bass from the Reno Wolfbrother’s. Mike was an awesome guy to play he brought a pure Eldar triple wraithknight/serpent list. I was so happy to have the Navy thing out of my hair that I told Mike about what happened last round and that this had to be a fun game. That’s exactly what we had. Mike had a cool thing, the rape whistle he called it, when one of his knights rolled a six to wound he would blow this thing. Lol, I couldn’t stop laughing because we knew that there might be some six’s on both sides being rolled.
With that in mind, night fighting was rolled up and Mike took the side with plenty of cover. I gave Mike first turn because at this point we both just wanted to have fun. Mike deployed with all three of his knights in his central piece of cover and two wave serpents on one flank and another three on the other flank. With night fighting on my side and the deployment being longer than usual, I opted to deploy towards the side with the two serpents so I didn’t receive as much fire from the serpents on turn one. I decided not to seize and away we went.
Turn one was a little bit of shuffling from his knights and moving from the serpents on the opposite flank of my council to get in range of my knights. The two serpents flank on the same side of my council moved up to unload on me. All in all he ended up killing a Farseer I put out front to tank wounds, and a warlock. This earned him first blood, unfortunately for him it wasn’t the fortune seer so even though it hurt me it wasn’t terribly bad.
In my turn one I healed up a wound caused on my knight with the wraithstone and moved up. I made sure the knights kept their toes in the area terrain just for cover against his knights. Shooting for me went pretty well, I got past the cover save of the serpent on the flank closest to my council and immobilized it. Then I turbo boost the council into a defensive formation in front of my knights to protect them from a potential assault from his knights. I turbo boost the venom behind some LoS terrain to help it survive another turn.
In Mike’s turn two he moved his serpents on the opposite flank of the council back a bit to get away from the council’s threat range. He moved the lone operational serpent on the council’s flank along the board edge to get shots on the venom’s tiny bit of the wing he saw. In the ensuing shooting he took out a warlock, downed the venom, killed two warriors and put two wounds on a knight.
In my turn two I had two jetbike squads come on, I hugged my board edge in an attempt to get away from the remaining serpents fire. I healed both wounds on the knight with a combination of the stone and a renewer. Next I kept one knight touching cover on the side with the three serpents while the other knight jumped over towards the serpent hugging the board edge to threaten it into moving back into his deployment zone. The council moved up and presented itself as a juicy target for all three of his knights but also continue to threaten his serpents into moving further back. I destroyed the downed serpent with the knight nearby, also stunning the dire avengers inside. The other knight took shots at one of his wounded knights dealing two wounds and forcing him to reconsider assaulting with all three.
In Mike’s turn three he moved two of the knights towards the council and another one toward my knight threatening the operational serpent on the council’s original flank. He moved the operational serpent up to take shots at the jetbikes. Then he moved the three serpents on the opposite flank further back from the council. He took some shots on the knights but I either saved them or took a wound or two on each. Then Mike assaulted his knight on the flank of the operational serpent into my knight, then it happened I rolled a six for the overwatch and a six to wound. Since he was going through area terrain of the ruined serpent he had a 5+ but he failed it. He also assaulted his two other knights into my council, I was going first because both knights were touching cover when they assaulted so I promptly did three wounds on one and one on the other. In return I lost no one because I was rolling hot with my 4+ invulnerable.
After that everyone was fearless so I hit and ran away towards the three serpents that were perfectly lined up. I landed right in front of all of them for a easy one inch assault. He consolidated one of his knights towards my knight that had just instant killed his and the other a inch towards where the council was. In my turn three things started really picking up. I got the remaining jetbikes onto the table after losing one squad last turn. I powered up the council and moved the knight and inch from his operational serpent hugging the board edge. I put another wound on the knight in the open and got ready for assault. I ended up moving myself a bit further away from the serpents so when I declared the knight as the main and the serpents as the secondary all the council didn’t go into the knight.
In the ensuing assaults the knight eliminated the serpent his the hammer of wrath hit alone, exploding it and killing three of the dire avengers inside. The council took out two of the three serpents through explosions and left the last one with one hull point and no guns. The baron took the knight on and did three wounds leaving it with one remaining. I consolidated into the knight and it went into Mike’s turn four. At this point the turns went really fast I killed the knight in his turn and ended up killing the last serpent and dire avengers who got out of the explosions through sheer weight of attacks alone. His knight assaulted mine and we both killed each other. I jumped all my jetbikes onto objectives, picking up the relic and getting warlord on the last turn from my knights assault. The game ended with 9-1 victory to me. Mike was a great opponent with a tough list, we’ll have to play again in the future.
Overall I finished with 38 out of 50 battle points in the tournament to get me 16th place. I did exactly what I set out to do, go 4-1. So I was happy even with the house rule of the 2+ save getting nerfed I feel like I did very well. Unfortunately I feel like I could have done better especially in my round four instead of giving up but overall I had an awesome time in Vegas and the event was spectacular. Thanks Frontline Gaming for running such a awesome event.
Good Job. You abused a broken game mechanic and did well, and when you don’t roll Fortune you lost… Though to be fair, sounds like you played through a lot of distractions. Still, you are contributing to the growing super un-fun Deathstar Meta, I hope you are proud of yourself. Play a no gimmick army and see how good you really are. I am sure you are a good player and don’t need the Eldar crutch. Plus then you might see how broke your own list is when compared to an honest, no gimmicks list.
Now there’s no call for being a douche canoe.
Baal Viper needs excuses for why he loses, after all. The OP couldn’t have won games because they’re a good player, after all.
I did not go to LVO and live on the east coast. I just do not understand why people think it is fun/ fair to play with units this durrable. It puts people with normal armies at a huge disadvantage just becasue they are not capitalizing on a game design gimmick. Tourneys are fast becoming a contest of who can abuse the rules the most instead of a contest of who is the best general. The more people bringing these broken units, the faster this arms race accelarates. As a result we have a Meta that is built around bringing your own, or finding a way to beat a 2+ reroll save.
As proof of how powerful these lists are, the 2++ reroll was comped down to a 2++/4++ and it still won.
The game is not fun/fair when one side has a near invincible unit with Hit and Run and the other does not.
If every army had access to these unkillable unts it would be fair, and even then, it would not be fun…
wow, that’s some antsy pantsy stuff you got going on Baal. did anyone down him for sports? anyone actually playing feel absolutely awful?
you want prof how powerful the list is…. only one made it to the top eight. sure he won, but all the other guys could have as well, they all had extremely hard lists.
I , personally, love the challenge of going against hard armies and trying to make the best from the situation, but like most people, I don’t go to win the darn tourney, as nice as that would be:). I go to play some great people and I understand there’s a chance I’ll hit an uber list/player combo and maybe get floored, but thats a great experience. It’s like getting done by roger federer in a tennis match;P.
But that will only happen once in a tourney this big, then you just play regular folk and it’s fine.
…and it would be sacrilege if we allowed things like Destroyer weapons which ignore those 2++ saves. It just wouldn’t be balanced. 😉
Alright guys, be cool, please. There is room for different views and play styles, we don’t have to insult one another.
Alright guys, be cool, please. There is room for different views and play styles, we don’t have to insult one another.
^^^^
Geez, bitter much? I am guessing you can’t beat them, hence the tone of your response. Trolololololol. Hope you’re proud of yourself.
They didn’t allow the 2++ reroll at LVO, so the “gimmick” you speak of was not there to the extreme.
Good job Grant and its too bad that you had the distractions you did during Round 4. You still finished well and hopefully all of that paperwork is in!
It has nothing to do with bitterness. Its math. failing 1/36 times or even 1/12 is way better than anything else available in the game in terms of durability. I decline games against these lists unless it’s a tournament becasue they are designed to win with little to no risk of being hit back, that is not a game, that is a joke. The concept of an unkillable unit SHOULD repulse the gaming community as it clearly breaks the basic concept of the game. However people will clearly do anything to win.
No take all comers list has the tools to deal with these super units and have a chance against other normal armies. These Deathstar units are killing TAC armies and driving the meta toward Deathstar on Deathstar matchups which ussually are won and lost based on who goes 1st, what powers are rolled, and who matches up better against the other particular DS. If you will notice, all of these factors are based only on dice rolls, totally devoid of any skill.
The more people who take 2++ reroll units the more this problem will grow because unless you have something similar you are fighting up hill from the start.
Not impressed by someone who can win 4 out of 5 with that army, do it with a balanced Space Marine/ Necron/SW/GK/ Orc/ BA and I will be very impressed and want to hear all about how you managed it.
I have to say, VS these Deathstars nids kinda shine. Less so vs tzeech, but with the jetseer/spiritseer thing its kinda funny. Sure that first round you get the super group, but alot of what makes them Krazy goes out the window with SotW. Locks have a LD of 5, seers 6, and Farssers 7. I cheap as dirt unit like 30 gargs have a solid chance of spreading out and cornering them and once tar pitted, good luck.
The other thing to do is just hit them from the rear if possible. Most of your armies can take ravens and talons, in an all comers list you should have some. make sure the fortune casting Farsser is closest if possible and cause you some wounds. I think a DP army with some ravens would be botha fun and good list to use and helps mitigate some of the issues you are having. Another thing you can do is make it so he has to Chinese finger cuff himself when multi charging.
Yes a static gun line gets blowed up by these guys, so think a little more tactically and you can have some fun with it.
Alright guys, be cool, please. There is room for different views and play styles, we don’t have to insult one another.
Alright guys, be cool, please. There is room for different views and play styles, we don’t have to insult one another.
GTA also happens to be a pretty awesome guy in general. It would be much appreciated if you took your condescending, hateful attitude back to the shadows from whence it came.
nice writeup bro! helluva performance too <3
Bring on the Destroyer weapons!
no
God please yes
man, I’m so with you:P
You have fun with that. I won’t be attending.
Might as well.
Good thing going into these huge tournaments most people want and expect to play lists like this. This is one of the major tournaments in the country and I wouldn’t expect less if people weren’t showing up to try and win it all. This event is ran by members of Team ZERO COMP for crying out loud. If you don’t want to play against these lists then stick to your basement with your friends.
We know that GW does not care about game balance, so why do we hold so tightly to their rules. Their marketting plan is to create embalance to create an arms race. When the rule making entity does not care to balance/regulate the game, does it not fall to the players of the game to regulate and make it fair? Or do we just carry on following GW’s lead knowing what they are doing to us?
Who is more foolish, the fool, or the fool who follows him?
We as a community must self-regualate because it is not in GW’s financial interests to create balance, in fact they want us all chasing the meta becasue of the embalance.
While I agree with a lot of what you said, I honestly don’t think GW tries to get us to buy models with rules, I think they believe models sell on their looks.
In game 5, the Baron put three wounds on a Wraithknight in one round of combat??
He’s strength 6 on the Charge, so it is possible with good dice.
I find it interesting that people criticise GW for their broken rules and how abusive and unbeatable deathstars are. However, GW have introduced the counter to these deathstars in the form of D weapons – so it’s not GW that makes them overpowered it’s the tournament organisers.
I want to be clear that this isn’t a criticism of the TOs, I believe they made their decision to ban Escalation with good reasons.
Try to imagine a tournament with D weapons though, it’d completely disrupt the meta and, I believe, introduce a lot more variation in armies. I can’t say that I’ve math-hammered (or even played against) units like the Revenant but I’d dare to say that they’re probably easier to counter than most of the current deathstars, and probably cost more points.
You might then end up with a rock, paper, scissors situation which could breath new life into the scene without the introduction of lots of new competition-only rules.
On subject! It’s really a pity round4 was a washout. I’m a Chaos fan-boy and would have loved to hear how the Daemons fared against the army.
Introducing D weapons would simply replace 2++ deathstars with a new, game-breaking army. A lot of people tend to forget that this exact thing happened when I believe it was the Adepticon Gladiator tournaments allowed super-heavies, and basically everyone took a Reaver Titan and utterly destroyed everything else. And Str D was significantly less powerful back then.
I really don’t understand how anyone with half a brain can seriously think that introducing an even more broken mechanic is a good solution to eliminating a different broken mechanic. I’ve played a number of games with Str D involved, and in each case the game came down to nothing more than “will the D table its opponent in 5 or 6 turns?” Str D ruins the game even more than an unkillable deathstar, especially if your opponent plays an elite army like Grey Knights or Space Marines.
My main point was that people criticise GW’s terrible, ill-thought-out rules for allowing the existence of 2++ deathstars when, in fact, GW have provided a very effective counter to them that the tournament community decides to refuse to use!
As I said, I understand that the TOs had good reasons not to include Escalation, so there’s no need to insult my intelligence. 😛
None the less, I am curious what would happen to the meta with the introduction of Escalation and other Super-heavies. Currently, the only battle reports I’ve seen that include them have been against unprepared opponents in a relatively casual setting – in that case, of course the Revenants etc. will dominate. If you include the bonus to seizing, the additional victory points for damaging super-heavies and the other Escalation rules to a tournament setting, I don’t think it’d be as clear cut as people think.
Who would win the tournament – a Revenant centred army, someone who’s built their army to counter Revenants or the guy who decided to bring his deathstar? Counter-D beats D, D beats deathstar, deathstar beats Counter-D…
What’s happened in the past when Rock Paper Scissors lists became popular in the meta is that one dominated the other, which dominated the other, which dominated the other, that went on for about a year, then the more balanced lists started to gain popularity because they were less matchup dependent. If you build your list to counter 2++ lists, but then 2++ lists lose popularity in favor of the counter to your list, then your list will in turn become less attractive, etc. After a while, the more balanced lists end up doing well.
I don’t think people that argue that D weapons are a balancing factor have actually used them. In our games they are so brutally unfun to play against or with.
Why not just Limit people to no more then 50% of the army lists points can be spent on Lords of War. So in a 1750pts tournament, That would take out the revenant and most Over Powered CTan or most deadly titans. But it would allow people D weapons to deal with the Tau Bomb and Eldar Seerer counsil and Screamer/hearld star.
Because a lot of the LoW you can take at that many points is still devastating.
You are totally correct at 1750 just too painful.
What about an 1850 where you could use 25% of your points for Lords of War. This would allow 460pts to LoW? (just food for thought since they are technically “legal” now) I hate the B%tch that is GW but I Love to come home to her so i guess im screwed Haha.
My gaming group has hosted a tournament with 50% LoW at 1500pts. And it went really good with no complains (besides local Farsight bomb haha). I guess because it was low points we didnt run into an issue and everyone had a lot of fun.
my local meta doesn’t play these “death star”, that being said there are tons of cheesey combos still coming about. but i also have 2 of the top 25 players in the country playing and winning every tourney here despite my efforts to throw crazy missions at them. so basically the guys winning these major GT’s aren’t winning because of an amazing combo alone, they are talented tactical generals of tabletop wargames. Give credit where credit is due to winners of these events cause when i played the same exact cookie cutter list i didnt win every game i played. they are beatable and require generalmanship(thats a word today lol) so congrats to the Frontline crew and all who made this event possible and even more grats to the winners of all the categories. And awesome report GTA sucks when RL kills your focus hope all turns out good for you and best of luck to you at the next event you attend.
Can we add Generalmanship to the dictionary? It’s a great word
Well said on all counts.
I think we would see a much more balanced game, overall, if ALL GW publications were actually allowed in events (as GW had intended). D-weapons take care of invincible units real quick, without making too much of a difference against the mundane/horde units.
Play against a revanant
Yeah, play against a Rev and see how unfun the game is. Yes, they kill Deathstars but they kill everything else too, while remaining neigh-unkillable in return.
I would even let my opp choose the rest of my army.
In fact I would play with storm Guardians, banshees and naked Autarch and still win.
Hey,
I was the IG player in round 2 and was glad I was able to give you a good game of it. With a bit more luck going after your scoring the ending could have changed a bit. Hopefully I will get a chance at a rematch in the future!
Guys I’m sorry this brought up such a controversy here on the forms, I didn’t intend that at all. A lot of people have been reading my blog since the beginning when I first purchased my tickets and when I had the idea to do the Road to the LVO blog. These people approached me at the LVO and asked if I could put a report of my games so they could better understand how I did. This is for them and the other people interested, this is not something to get mad about.
Honestly guys I went to this event to have fun and I tried to make that so for every opponent I played even the ones that either owned me or I beat. It was my birthday for crying out loud going 4-1 is a great result for me and with everything happening I’m just happy I got the chance to play.
– Baal – I’m sorry you feel that way and I hope you never have to run into anyone playing a deathstar at a tournament for as long as you play. I would recommend staying away from tournaments then because it seems like your experiences in the past have made you bitter about deathstars. If I could recommend a game for you where you won’t run into this, try warmachine hordes I hear everything is equal. Baal if we ever play someday I will happily put my “Eldar crutch” away and play a “No Gimmick army” as you said, against you so you can have an enjoyable time as well.
Also thank you for your comments on my play style though, I bet your a very good tournament player as well, but those comments like the ones you said earlier weren’t needed. I totally understand your anger towards deathstars but don’t worry everyone already tells me how much they hate them and how bad of player I am for playing them. (Just for your info it’s not breaking news to me. I get it from my own teammates as well.) I hope you have a great 2014 tournament season this year and I hope you don’t run into any deathstars.
-Grant
No need to apologize, buddy, it’s not you, it is a controversial topic right now. You played well!
Would it be so game-breaking to make it standard that there are NO rerolls on an invulnerable save? Re-rolls on a 2+ save can be contained by high AP weapons that don’t allow the save in the first place. I don’t think any codex was designed requiring rerollable invulnerable saves to be competitive. Just declare that armor saves and invulnerable saves are different, and anything that allows reroll of saving throws doesn’t affect invulnerable saves.
^^^ i like this very much. simple easy rule clarification. people making arguements for d weapons need to understand that GW did not make the rules for them with the intention of removing 2++ rerollable deathstars. they made the weapons to speed APOC games along because without them, game pace and lack of board space would make for very long boring games. D weapons are not a god send. They are a tool used in a very different kind of 40k. Id rather not introduce more nonsense into the game thank you very much.
The issue isn’t just invul saves though. If someone has a 2+ reroll save of any kind and you do not have the counter weapon, it may as well be an invul save. For example, if you can’t ignore cover (which many armies in the game cannot), a 2+ reroll cover save is just as insane. Same with a 2+ reroll armor save if you lack AP2, or as with the Seercouncil, all three of the 2+ saves!! Doh!
It is the reroll mechanic itself that is the issue, not just invul saves, IMO.
Yea, you’re right. Rerollable saves are bad no matter the case. Maybe a limit on how many models are allowed in the unit could help. This could potentially drop the effectiveness of the psychic aspects of the death star unit. Less attempts at getting the correct spells as well as more potential for losing key models in the squad. Just a thought.
Yeah, that is a thought too. I think the point though that we can all agree on is that something needs to be done. The rule mechanic itself is flawed.
Everyone has a way to ignore 2+ cover…. It’s called melee. Most armies have a weapon that ignores cover too. Who doesn’t have access to AP 2 weapons? Currently there are very few ways to overcome 2+ invulnerable rerolls. D weapons do this, but also ruin everything else just as easily. The utility of a reroll spell/ ability would be preserved if it was limited to armor and cover saves, but there would always be the possibility that it could be negated by the opponent if it was limited to these. Do you think people would continue to put all their eggs in one death star basket if there was a reasonable chance the opponent could ignore their reroll mechanic or limit them to a single 2++ without reroll?
What melee weapons ignore 2++ reroll saves?
And Units like the Seer Council have a 2+ invul, cover and armor save that they reroll. No army in the game has shooting to deal with that.
Even if you can reduce them down to their 4++ reroll, you still need an incredibly amount of AP2 to kill them (only 1/4 wounds land) and they swing first and do a lot of damage themselves.
If you could ignore the reroll mechanic that would certianly make people think twice about taking a Deathstar.
I was just continuing my previous thought that invulns would not be allowed to reroll, so you wouldn’t need a weapon vs them, only sheer volume of attacks. 1 in 6 will fail, which is much more reasonable than 2++ reroll or 2++/4++.
2+ reroll armor saves would be ignored by power fists/monstrous creatures for example.
Cover saves don’t apply in melee.
Just an example of ways these Death Stars might be more reasonable to defeat if the rules for the reroll powers (precog, fortune) were modified to only allow rerolls of armor and cover saves, but not invuln saves. It seems the reroll invuln is the more of the game breaker, as the D weapon is the only counter. It is difficult to overcome through weight of fire. Limiting them to a single 2+ without reroll makes them susceptible to weight of fire once again (their “vulnerability”), as 1 in 6 wiounds will get through. Reroll cover and reroll armor are more reasonable, even at 2+, because there are mechanisms to ignore both cover and armor saves entirely, making them more killable.
Ah ok, I wasn’t following you. Yeah, I agree though that some type of change needs to be made as things as they stand now are really loopy.
Congrats Grant. I was honestly surprised that you didn’t make it to the Top 8….I wouldn’t mind beating you for the Championships. LOL!!!
Ah, whom am I kidding. I’m glad I didn’t have to play your army. I hate the seer council with a passion and will crush them at every opportunity, that is, if I am not first crushed myself. LOL. 😉
Alas, I didin’t make it either, though my loss was in Game #5. So close….and yet so far. Anyways, congrats on a job well done!
Well done to you, too, buddy! You played a great tournament, only getting knocked out last round by the guy who took second! Not bad at all.
Honest Question but how does the Seer Council deal with AV 14 ? The nerd Rage is strong with that one geesh. I have played through 3.5 edtions of this game and their has always been this whinny attitude about op this or that. Play the mission and you win. I Think their is a line in the sand but every group of gamers makes that line because at the end of the day we are grown men and women playing with plastic army guys trying to win more plastic army guys . Plain and simple . If you don’t like ultra competive 40k then leave it alone and organize your own event with your own restrictions and vision of 40k. Be part of the solution not the problem. I am blessed to have 3 groups of gamers around me that are competive w/o being WAAC but i dont judge that one group that is WAAAC. I just don’t attend their events . I Forge the narative dude.
Those are all fair comments but if you go to big events around the country, and enjoy that, these are the lists you face. These lists are a new level of stupid in OP stuff in 40K. I too have been around for a long time and I can honestly say that while these lists and units are not unbeatable, they reach a new height of lame.
And yes, you can just not go to big events but that sucks. And we have organized our own event with our own rules =)
Lastly, I fucking hate the WAAC moniker, it implies that people who play competitively cheat (thus the term, win at all costs) which really sucks. Any other term for me at least, is preferable as WAAC is offensive in that it implies these types of gamers are unethical which in my eyes is a pretty big insult. I am not saying you intended it that way, but I cringe a bit every time I read that.
Sorry no offense Reecius. To me a WAAC Gamer is the guy who dunks on a kid in a charity father son basketball game because he can. Like i said you can be a competive gamer that’s fine i am. i was an athlete and hate particpation trophies but the group iam talking about has no love of the lore, the painting or spirit of the rules. They play to crush their opponent through rules and models. I like winning but I am not looking to be Cobra Kai either . I wish we had a better moniker. Would tfg work better,
No worries, no offense taken. I just think people are talking about competitive gamers when I hear WAAC, which as you pointed out, simply isn’t true. And lol to the Cobra Kai Dojo reference! haha
With multiple instances of Enhance (I believe that’s the power that gives +1 S) from the Warlocks. Thus, you are looking at S5+ +2D6 armor pen. Still not great, but when you get about 30+ Prescienced attacks from the unit, that is enough to wreck almost any AV14 vehicle.
Actually the Errol’s wouldn’t be so bad if it wasn’t coupled with the allied baron. If you could tar pit the council you could at least hold them down. I am really beginning to hate the way the USRs and allies work. It’s getting almost as bad as the commissar with the camo cloak giving stealth to the 40 man blob used to be. Without allies a lot of the death stars would stop working. I am not saying ban allies but let’s make them like chaos. I mean really the Baron has a necklace of farseers bones… Why would any farseers allow him to be led by this guy? That’s like the buff commander joining a space marine unit. Let’s see the chaplain has the unit intoning the catechism of xenos hate but the tau are good with it. I really think that the broken ally matrix has more to do with the state of the game rather than anything else.
I totally agree. Sans Baron, the Seercouncil would be totally fine.
That was supposed to be council by the way stupid auto correct