I’ve had a few test games with the list I posted about here last week, and now I am giving an update on how it has been performing.
The list was a lot of fun to play and the synergy of the Terminators and Calgar was great fun. After some testing and fine tuning, this is the list I was running last:
Calgar
Dark Angels Libby: Lv2, Power Field
Deathwing Termies x 6: Hammers x 5, Assault Cannon
Sternguard x 8, Drop Pod
Tactical Marines x 10: Flamer
Rhino
Tactical Marines x 10: Flamer
Rhino
Dark Angels Scouts x 5: Snipers
Devastators x 7: M.Launchers x 4
Thunderfire Cannon
Whirlwind
Well, the list was fun, had a lot of synergy and played largely very well. Deathwing came down turn 1 and opened up with a Twin Linked Assault Cannon. Calgar came down in a pod, unleashed the Orbital Bombardment and then joined the Deathwing for a turn 2 assault in the backfield. The Libby buffed my backfield shooting units and protected them with the Power Field Generator. Tacticals and Scouts took objectives.
It was working fine and then I played triple Riptide/triple Broadside team Taudar and just got smashed into the dirt. The army simply lacked the punch and durability to handle that type of offensive punch. As General Akbar said, we weren’t prepared to repel firepower of that magnitude!
So, back to the old drawing board.
The concept is sound and I feel that it is still a really solid army that is also very fun to play but in a truly competitive environment I am going to get owned. You need more bodies, straight up. I needed enough troopers to cross the field and get into combat with the Riptides and Wave Serpents to drop them. Further, you need to be able to keep heat off of the backfield shooting units so they can kill the enemy scoring units.
So, I am considering a White Scars list that doesn’t play the way you may think!
I am considering bringing back something I really thought was dead: Power Fist Sarges. Why? They give you great tools to kill the two top dogs at the moment: Tau and Eldar, and, they aren’t bad against a lot of the Daemon shenanigans you see currently. As those are the three most popular tournament lists, followed by Chaos (whom it is actually a detriment against in a lot of chases, but we’ll get to that) it may not be a bad idea. Here’s why:
Tactical Marines can handle almost all Tau units and Wave Serpents in combat and do pretty dang well against Eldar scoring units too, such as Wraithguard, Dires and especially Guardians. Eldar swing first anyway, so who cares if the Fist slows you down in a challenge? Plus, it is great for smashing Serpents and War Walkers to bits.
Against the common Tau units that can actually give you trouble in a fight (suits), the Fist is a huge advantage. It insta-gibs Crsis and Broadsides, and it should reliably put a wound or two on a Riptide, which with a little luck, can win you the combat resulting in running the big bastard down!
Both Tau and Eldar units don’t have Sarge upgrades to challenge him out of combat so that helps a ton, too. Daemons, the other common army out there right now, is hit or miss. The Greater Daemons will certainly smash the ole Fist Wielding sarge in a challenge, which sucks, but a lot of the units of troops and infantry don’t have a Character in them so challenge you out and many of them are multi-wound, T4 (Khorne Dogs and Fiends) whom will fear that Fist. Heralds can be a good or bad thing. A lot of folks are taking Heralds of Tzeentch, who are wimps in a fight and will get insta-killed by the first but Slaneesh and Khrone…not so much.
Chaos though, due to the good old Champion of Chaos rule, will always be challenging! So, it really just depends on what the other model is equipped with and what type of model it is (a Cultist Champ will annoyingly kill your Sarge before he swings every now and then but it should be rare) and as such, the Fist can be a boon or bane.
Long story short, I think the meta has shifted to a point where the increased offense and leadership the Vet Sarge with Fist adds to massed Tactical Squads may in fact be a good choice again.
Pile 60 of them into Rhinos, take Khan to give them Scouts and then of course the amazing Hit and Run from White Scars Chapter Tactics and you have a slippery, hard hitting, resilient core of scoring units that also applies a ton of pressure turn 1. You also get Hit and Run to get out of crummy combats which helps a ton and that is the reason I say White Scars over Raven Guard. Here’s the list I want to try:
| White Scars | 1750 Pts | ||
| Unit | Description | Size | Cost |
| HQ | |||
| Khan | Moondrakken | 1 | 150 |
| Command Squad | Bikes, Grav Guns x 5 | 5 | 210 |
| Troops | |||
| Tactical Marines | Flamer, Vet, P.Fist | 10 | 180 |
| Rhino | 1 | 35 | |
| Tactical Marines | Flamer, Vet, P.Fist | 10 | 180 |
| Rhino | 1 | 35 | |
| Tactical Marines | Flamer, Vet, P.Fist | 10 | 180 |
| Rhino | 1 | 35 | |
| Tactical Marines | Flamer, Vet, P.Fist | 10 | 180 |
| Rhino | 1 | 35 | |
| Tactical Marines | Flamer, Vet, P.Fist | 10 | 180 |
| Rhino | 1 | 35 | |
| Tactical Marines | Flamer, Vet, P.Fist | 10 | 180 |
| Rhino | 1 | 35 | |
| Elites | |||
| Fast Attack | |||
| Heavy Support | |||
| Thunderfire Cannon | 1 | 100 | |
| Fortifications | |||
| Totals | 73 | 1750 |
So you have a ton of bodies, and with scout moves you are on the other player double tapping with massed firepower turn 1, charging en masse turn 2. Against the armies you see a lot now, that is going to be pretty deadly. Plus, against Daemons, you Tank Shock units into Flamer formation and let them have it.
The list is weak against Fliers, obviously, but with the fact that you will often be in assault turn 1 or 2, that should help to mitigate it a great deal.
The second list I was considering was going an altogether different direction.
| Black Templars | 1750 Pts | ||
| Unit | Description | Size | Cost |
| HQ | |||
| Chapter Master | Bike, Hammer, Shield Eternal, Hammer, Artificer | 1 | 250 |
| Troops | |||
| Crusader Squad | Plasma Gun, L.Cannon | 5 | 105 |
| Crusader Squad | Plasma Gun, L.Cannon | 5 | 105 |
| Crusader Squad | Plasma Gun, L.Cannon | 5 | 105 |
| Crusader Squad | Plasma Gun, L.Cannon | 5 | 105 |
| Crusader Squad | Plasma Gun, L.Cannon | 5 | 105 |
| Crusader Squad | Flamer, Initiates x 10, | 20 | 285 |
| Neophytes x 10, P.Axe, Sword Brother, P.Maul | |||
| Elites | |||
| Fast Attack | |||
| Storm Talon | Skyhammer | 1 | 125 |
| Storm Talon | Skyhammer | 1 | 125 |
| Storm Talon | Skyhammer | 1 | 125 |
| Heavy Support | |||
| Thunderfire Cannon | 1 | 100 | |
| Thunderfire Cannon | 1 | 100 | |
| Thunderfire Cannon | 1 | 100 | |
| Fortifications | |||
| Totals | 52 | 1735 |
Black Templars can still, for some reason, field 5 man Las/Plas squads. They’re still extremely points efficient, but they are not as good as they were in 4th ed when they seriously drove people nuts.
However, a core of scoring units that packs high strength, AP2 fire power for very few points is solid.
BTs also give you inbuilt Psyker defense which is a big boon in the current meta. Crusader helps when you need to hustle onto an objective late game or for running down high initiative targets in combat. Their bonuses to challenges means that a CM for the BTs hits like a freight train and building out a large Crusader squad to get you up-field and that can take an objective from most targets, is a reliable unit. Thunderfires in the backfield to give all of your shooting units a defensive buff and to blast infantry and light tanks to bits and a trio of Storm Talons to clear the skies (particularly of Turkeys) and punish ground targets is a combo that makes a lot of sense.
I will try both lists and see how I enjoy them. What do you all think?
Im liking them both. Thats what I love about the space marines codex, there is soo much variation in the options on how to build a lists. I have so many ideas I want to try out.
Yeah, they’re super different but I think both will be very fun in their own way. List 1 is a little more 1 dimensional, but it has durability and mobility to compensate.
Very nice. Always tro to find the 5 points for a aupex though, I would say. That -1 i cover saves for 5 points on a mobile bike could be handy, especially against Eldar. And why not swap one gravgun for the feel no pain the WS command squad?
Good point, that Auspex is really good, particularly agains things like Wave Serpents. As for FnP, I debate on that a lot, more offense or more defense? It’s a tough call.
My gut says the templar list, but I f you are going to Chapter Master to tank wounds it will bite you as hes on a bike. Being on a bke he has a jink cover save. So a canny enemy will focus fire to ignore him.
The Bike is more then to allow him to go off on his own if he so chooses. I like having the speed to get up their and fight if I want, plus tough 5 increases his durability (although majority toughness brings him down). Basically the 20pts allows him to be a LOT more flexible.
Dont get me wrong the bike s the way to go with this kind of character. Just harder to tank with him.
Yeah, in that roll I agree with you. I was planning on using him more as a free safety style unit, to go where needed.
I want to see that white scars list do well, but I just think fists are dead, too many ways to pick them out nowadays. The black templar list looks good, however I just don’t see the point of the chapter master, he doesn’t have a squad to gel with so I am thinking your wasting some points making him all buff like that.
I felt the same way about fists, but, I think there is a place for them now in the current meta. For example against Taudar, they can literally win the game for you. In general terms though, they do stink I am afraid.
The Biker CM doesn’t need a squad per se. I actually run biker characters solo all the time, my Orks for example have Warbosses on bikes cruising around solo. I have been doing that for editions and it works well, it is really easy to hide a single model. That said, having him in a unit is definitely a good call, too.
Hammer and anvil deployment will punish the white scars list way too much, as will wave serpent based eldar, it is just too reliant on Bolter alpha striking infantry. I like the Templars list more, but I feel they both lack the options your ultras had.
Hammer and Anvil can be rough if they deploy deep in their deployment zone. A lot of it would come down to who goes first. If the Scars go first you just flat out and get in their face, jump out turn 2. If you go second, do your best to hide but that would be rough.
I like the white scar list but it may struggle vs tau because of kroot if they infiltrate you can’t go within 12 of them, yes they can’t deploy within 18 if you see them or 12 if you can’t so a smart tau player can still control where you go with your scout and set up a killzone so to speak and the chance of giving up 1st blood its still worth the risk.
Yeah, Kroot would hamstring this a lot, you should still be able to get closer (infiltrators still have to stay 18″ away if anyone can see them) so you will be limited but often still a lot closer than you started. You can always outflank too, if needs be.
I do agree with you but it depends how much terrain you use to because kroot squads can be easier to hide with what the BRB says for terrian meaning they can be 12 away preventing the scout moves out of you deployment zone I did it agaisnt ravenwing when the DA codex came out.
Correct me if I am wrong but don’t you have to declare what is outflanking before you infiltrate
only problem with using your krrot to scout block are they are your troops. So if you are throwing your troops up to slow down rhino mounted tacticals it is not necessarily a bad thing for the tacticals.
How does that White Scars list deal with flyer-heavy armies?
It doesn’t! Haha, you have to hide in combat. But you’re correct in that a double or triple dragon list would be brutal. Rhinos help a lot, though. It would be the worst match-up though, no doubt.
shamlessley taken from my Swedish friend: 1850 mind you though.
interestingly beinmg an apothecary doesnt stop you taking a grav gun now btw, so have your cake and eat it:
Black Templars Chapter Master with Bike, 2+, Shield Eternal, Power Fist, Auspex
Command Squad with Bikes, Apotek, 5 Grav Guns
5x 5 Marines with Lascannon Plasma Gun
5x Rhinos
3x Storm Talons with Sky Hammer
3x TFC
personally if it needed a tweek id be tempted by dropping the plasma guns maybe , free the points to put las on the talons and then you may as well make it iron hands instead, not sure, would have to play it. that or just plain drop a plasma for a las upgrade on a one on one basis..find that sweet spot of compromise..
I am not certain if the Apothecary makes you lose the special weapon or not, it is a bit ambiguous, but I think there is a RAW argument for it, certainly.
I like that list a lot, though. I think the only thing it lacks is a big, tough scoring unit. Also, how is the command squad unlocked? The CM only unlocks Honor Guard.
as i say, its a shamless steal that perked my interest, It may have been a captain. or maybe he just fu*ked up lol . but still its got me thinking….
chapter master can not take a command squad
Looking at things from an outside perspective it looks like some of the recent mid size tournoments have been won by flying necrons. We will see this coming weekend with a highly competative national tournament, but I think if necron air players can get the hang of adapting to tau than they stand a better than average chance against all the other competative lists. They have the best last turn scoring in the game, tons of mid str shots, the best costed units in the game, and they have the CC threat with wraith/lords that eldar lack.
As far as the SM lists go i think they are going to have to balance the flyer defense with the ground shooting game. There is a very interesting grey knight list with 2 storm ravens and and massed storm bolter henchmen with monkey list that balances flyers with ground shooting. I think for SM to win major tournaments are going to have to figure out if they can do the same. The problem that pure SM run is that they have no real way to deal with psychic powers, where the gk do. The lists i think might have a better than average chance are White Scars / Space Wolves with enough AA to compete with the flyer armies. Grav Guns on bikes help immensely v.s. tau and eldar its just a matter of balancing v.s. flying circus, flying crons, and psychic stars.
The 2nd list looks very interesting and deserves a couple games against all the top lists to see if it can keep up with the cheese. The only problem i see is that its hugely static. With current close turnament games getting called on turn 4 or 5 due to time if eldar/necrons go 2nd and have scoring units left it is going to have a hell of a time wining a close game.
Whats the gk list? as ive been toying with double gk ravens too due to the preponderance of death stars that rely on a psykers popping up over here
Hey Tiber,
Some really good points, there. Yeah, the first list is pretty one dimensional and it really relies heavily on hitting critical mass with all of the Tacticla marines just overwhelming the other player with bodies. I think it could struggle against some lists, particularly very mobile lists such as Serpent Spam or against FMC Daemons that simply overpower them in assault.
And yes, the BT list is painfully static, that is very true. It does however, have a lot of Air assets and Barrage weapons that I think mitigate that quite a bit, leaving the Crusade squads to reposition. Honestly, I just need to try them out and see how it goes.
1850 list was this
Inquisitor Coteaz, ML 2 – Prescience, Foreboding
Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor, Carapace Armour, BP/Chainsword, 3 Servo Skulls, ML1 – Prescience
2x Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband: 10 Warrior Acolytes,10 Storm Bolters; 2 Jokaero
2x Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband: 10 Warrior Acolytes, 9 Storm Bolters, 1 Bolter; 2 Jokaero
2x Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband: 3 Crusader, Storm Shields, Power Swords
2x Stormraven Gunship, TL Assault Cannon, TL Multi-Melta, 2 Hurricane Bolters w/ Psybolt Ammo
3x Nemesis Dreadknight, 2 Doomfist, Heavy Incinerator
Aegis Defence Lines
The list and its owner post here, Dark Future Games, also there is a current battle report on dakka from the winner of Michigan GT, their game is to be written up next, which is the only time it lost.
The list it lost to was also super scary, Necron/CSM with some different picks than the norm.
I really enjoy these army list concept articles. Keep it up!
Thanks, and will do! I can’t turn it off in my mind, so I may as well write about it! haha