Below is the article which you can see over at BoLS. And just for the record, Goatboy and I are friends and I like to see his counterpoints on my article.
Goatboy is back and today I want to do a counter argument about Reece’s lovely article on the new Chaos Space Marine codex.
Now I do understand his points and really a lot of the commentators seem to hit it on the head with the idea that Reece just couldn’t break it so thus the codex is a FAIL. So with that in mind let’s break it down and give some counter arguments on how the book is actually good and I think that some players are just missing the opportunity to try something different with the game.
First of all – the Necron, GK, and IG books are really a bit too much. If you take the book entirely and not just on a few units that are copy, pasted, and copied again then you see those books are actually ok. There are some extremely efficient and soul crushing options that people only take and that clouds our judgement of the book in whatever environment we think that “competitive 40k” needs to survive in. These options create this culture of “Fail” and list building winning every game with the power of it’s math punch.
I know I have been a proponent of a lot of terrible lists. You can see in the constant comment cycle in some of my articles and the opinions of people who have never meet me. This is fine as really whatever game you play is the right game for you to play. I just want to give some counter arguments to the article and say – Chaos is a-ok!
First of all let’s look into the initial meat and bones issue. The lack of must have units in the book (beyond 2 Dragons as Reece pointed out) seems to be the case for most reviews of the book. I know I even reviewed the book in a meh way as I just looked at it from the math perspective instead of the playing side of things. As I have played with the book more and started to enjoy its interactions I am really finding the book to be a lot more fun then initially inspected. I like that every list I look at changes from week to week as I decide how engage my opponent with my nonsense.
The troop options are varied and that is good. When have we had a book with this many troop choices? When have we had a book with so many avenues that we can easily build an army in any direction? How about a book that is specifically designed to use Allies to help fill in holes or shore up an option? You want a cheap scoring option? You got it. You need some fearless butts to hang around? I got that for you too. What about some ability to push covering the board in 3+ bodies? Oh I got that for you too. I also have a neat flyer that does some crazy things. You can’t transport it that well but sure makes your friends mad when you poor some hot lava on their heads.
The biggest complaint I see is that everyone seems scared of rolling a leadership test. I know we are all used to either “stubborn” options or ATSKNF so we are a bit jaded when we have to worry about passing a test. I know this can suck and if you have played Fantasy you know this can make or break you in some games. But come on – this is a game and stuff like this will happen. How many times have you won a game on that lucky tank shock? Leadership is not an issue as other armies have to deal with it. We just think that not having a trick around the rules automatically makes the army a bad choice.
I also hear complaints that it isn’t just an easy win. I know we all miss our nutty 3.5 but we can’t expect a game to remain healthy if every book is just an auto win. It is exciting to actually work to get the game in the bag. The whole time I played Grey Knights I found it pretty boring. In fact – I rarely played and just had my GKs sit in a case for events. With Chaos I am all about trying something new. I haven’t gotten bored yet and that is the “win” of the book. An “EasyWin” codex means the book is bad, not good.
I also hear how a lot of options are too expensive. I know this book can bloat out but we can also go the opposite way and easily flood the board. I know we want all our models to be the ultimate kick ass option but really – shouldn’t this game be fun for my opponent too? I know that is the serious issue we have here in the game as people are not looking at how your opponent gets to interact. Look I like the fliers as it is fun to zoom around but 6 turns of your opponent sighing as they try to roll a 6 on a Plasma gun sucks ass. So hooray for a book that is more designed to play the game instead of just play on your opponents nerves *cough nightscythes*.
I know we all can’t be as lucky as some books who have misrepresented costs. We decided to do a math experiment with the lowly GK strike squad and decided to be fair and within other armies rules a single guy should cost around 30 points (I still say 25 but hey… I can’t win them all). I am just glad that my CSM book isn’t just pissing off the majority of other players and making an event a 25% steel and red highlighted mess. It also makes me have to seriously think about my builds as well as I try to fit in the answers I need.
I am thankful I got a new book to obsess over. I knew we weren’t getting the old 3.5 book back as that one didn’t work in the game. I knew that this book would most likely be a stepping stone for future mini releases as we get some of the later 6th edition books.
I was hoping this book wouldn’t be just another GK/Cron list with people jumping on for the flavor of the month. I like to win – but some of those other books don’t feel like you are playing with the opponent. It feels like you are playing at them and I have issue with that. I don’t need to win to make me feel better with my life. I have only a certain amount of time to play and I want to have fun. I enjoy the competitive nature of tournaments and think this edition actually fits in that mold very well no matter what the chatterbox says. Any game that has solid rules to govern your actions is designed for “competitive” play. I know people think the random nature automatically removes that from the game but I just think it actually makes it a game instead of a spreadsheet. But that is for another article as I delve into the idea of the competitive scene.
Currently I am experimenting using Orks as a nice bit of meat to hang my army ideas off of. Will see if I can get things working right in the coming weeks. I want to move away from abusing flyers for a bit and try to get some boots on the field to work. So in conclusion CSM is a good book. It gives enough to make interesting lists and won’t be on the whole “ban this book” bandwagon a lot of commentators like to jump on. Also Reece is a poop face. 🙂
-Goatboy
Haha – I really just think the book isn’t for everyone. People wanted 3.5 and it doesn’t work. They also wanted GK/Crons – and Phil Kelly doesn’t write books like that. There is nothing too obvious beyond a few options and it all depends on your play style to see if you like it. I enjoy it as I won’t be seeing a ton of CSM still at events and most likely they won’t look the same.
I hope that DA isn’t just an auto choice style book and we actually get something that isn’t pushed too forward like the GK and Crons. The biggest thing with those books is that each list starts to look the same and the point pushes just get too hard to justify. Plus there are too many things that are just not worth it while in the CSM book there is a lot of room to figure things out and many choices to take that makes the army difficult. The points all feel right (even though I wish things were cheaper to let me play with more toys) and it really pushes you to make a list that fits your play style.
I just hope Chaos Demons are still decent enough with the new book that could be coming.
I get kind of a different vibe from it when I am writing lists. I feel like the good choices are pretty clear, maybe not as bad as last edition for sure, but still some standouts. I also feel that a lot of units are just too expensive for what you get.
Like I said last week, I don’t think the book is bad at all, just not to my taste.
I like hearing your points of view, though (and others) as often people catch things I missed, or just have a different perspective, which is cool.
I am with you on Chaos Daemons, though, I like them a lot and hope they stay good, while patching up some of their weaknesses.
Just think of all hte article you can write about cheesy DA .
I agree with the poop face comment
Hahaha, you’re a jerk face!
sounds like poop face talk to me
Maybe just a little!
I am going to have to give this to Reecius. I feel like too much of the chaos army is ‘samey.’ Cultists are ok and fit the chaos theme, plague zombies are a cool addition and flow with the general zombie craze in theaters and video games, but most of the rest of the book is just ‘eh’ when it comes to theme.
Veterans of the long war is a nifty special rule, but the lack of any real legion stuff is a let down. The space marine codex hit it out of the park with chapter tactics in my opinion, and the lack of a similar representation here hurts. I disliked the 3.5 chaos book with the tons of variant army lists, and dont want that for chaos, but an Iron Warriors Warpsmith who made oblits and elite choice and granted extra points for denying line breaker would really go a long way to define the legion. After all, the legions should play slightly different from one another, and 6th does a FANTASTIC job of presenting new and unique victory conditions. Night lords for example could get a bonus on first blood, as they try and demoralize their opponent at the onset, Word Bearers could get zealot cultists, ect ect.
Also Goatboy, while you certainly can make a lot of different lists, I dont see thousand sons being fun to play in any of them. Same with mutilators. The possessed are better than before, but still not stellar and not all that interesting to play. Same with Warpclaws versus raptors. So much of the book is minor variations of power armor that doesn’t really play differently. It all seems to boil down to ‘choppy marines’ or ‘tough mid range shooting marines.’ Besides havocs there are 10 other power armor units that mostly trip over each other in terms of doing the choppy or mid range shooting job.
You said it better than I did.
One of my friends feels cheated by the new Chaos dex. He is, however, saving up the Dark Vengeance Dark Angels….all because Matt Ward is doing their dex. I’m not sure if that’s a good or bad thing.
As for the new CSM, I’m quite enjoying it at the moment. It’s a breath of fresh air compared to daemons, necrons and grey knights, the last few last few armies that I’ve been playing. CSM is like daemonhunters all over again….challenging to play and more rewarding when you triumph with them. I enjoy the underdog armies.
I wouldnt compare CSM to Daemonhunters, as they were long hailed as the worst army in the game. Daemonhunters was an incomplete army, and had rules for allies joining them or as allies to other books to make up for the abysmal unit count. There were only a couple actual units, may of which were really the same unit in a different slot… aka the PAGK which gained deepstrike if taken as fast attack and 2 extra psycannons if taken as heavy support, or the GK brother captain as both an HQ and elite squad leader.
I am glad you are enjoying it, quite a few folks are. I just felt a bit let down by it, and have little to no desire to actually play it. That doesn’t mean it is a bad Codex at all, just that it doesn’t appeal to me.
So how do GW win with codices ? as it seem to me that alot of the same people that complain about gk cron & daemons are also as likely to complain about an under powered codex lol
Imho the only way to do codices is either one person wrights them all or three people wrights each one, but as long as they carry on with the current way of doing it the problem is not going to go away.
But as this is really only a tournament problem it is unlikely that GW will do anything about it.
I agree that there needs to be more coordination between writers to avoid problems. And I fully acknowledge that it is easier said than done to write a balanced game. With so many variables and armies that are intentionally different to each other, it is hard to strike a reasonable level of balance.
My real complaint with Chaos though, is that they didn’t have enough of the awesome stuff they could have, like legion rules, etc. And some of the units, while not terrible, just aren’t good enough to hang with the other books. I just feel ever so slightly let down with it.
I was amazed with how many people started comments on your article with:
“That first paragraph made me so any, I just had to comment before reading the rest!”
Haha, that sir, is some top rate BolsTrolls baiting!
On a more serious point though, its amazing how many of the BolsTrolls just completely missed the point of the article. It was well written and your points were clearly made.
To me it demonstrated that a huge chunk on the BolsTrolls already have their comment written in their mind before they even click the link to the article!
*angry
Yup!
I mean, I really did chum the water, and I knew I was going to get flak, but it astounds me how many people just react emotionally without taking time to think about what’s going on, or what someone is saying. What is the point of commenting on an article if you aren’t event going to read it? Haha, some of them are just here to spout their rhetoric and they miss the point that I, and others who write on topics like I do, are in actuality very open minded to different ways of playing the game and yet are accused of being WAAC, etc. The irony of it never ceases to amuse me!
Overall, it isn’t bad. VotlW shouldve come stock for free, just as ATSKNF does. I mean, lets be fair, right? Icons should be unsnipable upgrades.
Posessed and Warp Talons should be 2 pts cheaper per model. Defiler and Forgefiend should both be either a)av13, or b)20pts cheaper.
Mutilators should be 1-5 with fleet instead of slow and purposeful.
Those few changes would go a LOOOOOONG way.
Legions are for ForgeWorld.. Quit complaining. Imean, you saw those Deathshroud models, right? Holy wowzers, batman.
Oh, my biggest complaint.. Chosen upgrades. A chosen with powerweapon costs more than a terminator.. Explain that one, Phil Kelly.
I agree with your critiques. I want more variety, and I think it could have been done quite easily.
I think that a mix of troops can win tournaments like last edition, except for thousands sons. I woul take the same amount of points of fear filled MOT marines Anyday! Sorcerers+ random abilities+ points = fail. For the all powerful tzeentch, they really got a giant turd for a nerf. At least let them wound everything on 4+….I got a feeling daemons will have similar nerfing and “buffing”