In this episode we give our first impressions on 6th ed after a few test games and a first read through of the rules.
Press play to listen to the podcast!
In this episode we give our first impressions on 6th ed after a few test games and a first read through of the rules.
Press play to listen to the podcast!
Well it is here……. So is it better than the “leaked” codex. I haven’t seen it yet hopefully later today. As always nice podcast and enjoy 6th …… I hope we shall see.
TTFN
There’s a lot to like with 6th, just some of the stuff was a bummer. We’re keeping an open mind though. Glad you liked the podcast!
I had a good chat with you yesterday Reece and picked up some of the despair that is floating around 6th, I think that there are some good things that people will like but don’t realize it yet(allies) and some Things that are much like the possessed chart in the current CSW book. FIrst game I played with my son yesterday. My Warboss gets FNP when within 3″ of an objective. We rolled purge the alien. *sadface*
I think it will still be a fun game for sure, just some of the basic mechanics of the game are a bummer.
the FAQ’s are out, they suck.
DE for instance, the only the Demiklaive got changed to AP 2, using it 2 handed. So Vect will have issues killing models in Artificer armor and Termies. Don’t accept challenges from these guys.
Nemisis Force weapons Are AP 3 with the special rules (unusual force weapons).
DE have no missile launcher troops, so only Skyfire is from Razorwing and Void Raven.
Also they were not consistent, Veil of tears was errata in Eldar Codex to Shroud + Stealth, but was not touched in DE.
They were written 15 days ago.
Shite. Well, GW being GW. Sigh.
missle launchers don;t auto get flakk missles. they note flakk at the back of the book in the summary on missle launchers, but in the actual section on flakk it says , some missle launchers can pay to upgrade to get flakk, so, you need to be able to pay for them. summary gets overidden by text.
unless you can find something else:P
Nice catch. I wonder which get this? We’ll have to dig and find it or wait and see it as an upgrade to future models.
but which launchers none of the Codex updates allow for Flakk missiles to be bought.
I listened to your show and you were wrong on a lot of points. I know is was because of the newness of the rules and the FAQs not being out yet, but still…
I do not get all of this nerd rage. Sure no one likes change, but come on!
I will use the post above to illustrate:
-“DE for instance, the only the Demiklaive got changed to AP 2, using it 2 handed. So Vect will have issues killing models in Artificer armor and Termies. Don’t accept challenges from these guys.”
Here is a news flash for you: Everyone’s power weapons were nerfed! Too bad your army has no access to AP2 weaponry, or a high torrent of fire to kill models with a 2+ save…oh wait, your army kills terminators better than any other and you are upset that Vect can’t kill one?
-“Nemisis Force weapons Are AP 3 with the special rules (unusual force weapons).”
Again, everyone’s power weapons are worse. What is the point of your comment?
-“DE have no missile launcher troops, so only Skyfire is from Razorwing and Void Raven”
No army has Flakk Missiles at this point so how does that make your army worse in this edition compared to every other? Do you know how many armies do not have flyers? Your army has access to 2 and you are upset?
-“Also they were not consistent, Veil of tears was errata in Eldar Codex to Shroud + Stealth, but was not touched in DE.”
They obviously made a mistake of omission. You really need to learn how to deal with problems is this is such a major issue.
-“They were written 15 days ago.”
So what?
I think the biggest issue is the wound allocation. I can almost see myself liking everything else it was not linked together by that rule. I can see so much brokenness and power gaming as a result.
I like MOST of the rules but I hate the wound allocation and random charges.
Hey Blackmoor,
I have no rage about the new rules I like most of what I’m reading. My post was more about how I thought they would have done a better job with the Codex updates. They were not consistent, or comprehensive enough.
On the other side of things I have a new family so money is tight, I play a mostly assault based Wych army built from the old Dex originally. I play for fun when I can, when I get to play I normally see IG Flyers, BA flyers, Deathwing, Even Ravenwing. Now because I don’t have many of the new Dex’s toys I will loose more than I win, but I’m always competitive and give good games. I have learned to be very tactically sound. With the rules changes and lack of Codex updates I’m going to get curb-stomped hard, In fact I did This weekend. Until I have free cash, my 1 year old is out of daycare 4 years, my cars are paid off 4 years. I’m not going to have much fun playing.
I don’t mind loosing, or loosing often, but I don’t like not presenting a challenge or having a chance to win.
Buy the way what are the odds of downing a Stormraven with Darklances 6 shots a turn or so. because I could not kill one for the life of me this weekend.
Thank you so much, this is why I listen to your podcast, you realize the absolutely stupid shit that I see. I am of course talking about the new wound allocation rules. Because of how broken, stupid, and stultifying a better process is needed, so how about this:
Allocating wounds for models with multiple armour saves
After rolling to wound allocate a wound to each model in a unit starting with the closest to the unit. After this is done, gather up all the dice and place them into different pools depending on there armour save. Roll for each armour save, allocating any failures to the closest model of that armour type.
Ex: A wolf guard squad consisting of 3 models in terminator armor, and 4 in power amour receive 5 wounds from a group of lootas. After allocating to the closest models, 2 terminators are assigned a wound and 3 power armour are assigned the rest. After rolling the terminators make all there saves, and the power armor fail 1, so the closest power armor is removed, even if a terminator was closer.
Yeah, I have to say, their system is pretty terrible. It is one of the worst rules in the book, no doubt. I liked the system in the leaked PDF so much more, or yours, too.
In challenges both sides still fight, but the characters cannot attack the unit and the unit cannot attack the challenge fight.
Yes, you are right.
Randomness= not tactical? Not knowing the outcome = not tactical. Makes no sense to me. I like random charges, psychic abilities, warlord abilities. Not knowing makes my brain tick, calculating diff. outcome. if i fail this charge what will i do, etc.
Looks like a good edition. I like hull points. Vehicles may die quick or if you get glancing they can fire back.
There are more possibilities in any one turn compared to 5th.
I understand your argument, a lot of folks make that argument and it has merit. I think there is more than enough randomness in the dice with attacks and such, though. Adding more means you just don’t know what the heck is going on or what is going to happen. It reduces skill. I am not saying it is without skill, obviously not, just that skill is less important now than in a system with more absolutes. As Chess is MORE a game of skill than Poker (not that Poker isn’t) it’s just that the more results are determined by chance the less important skill is, which irks me.
p.s. don’t right 6th off too soon. The will obviously be LESS combat, more short range shooting. Meta will change.
We haven’t given up at all, just a bit of a blow on the first play through. I am sure once we get used to it it will be OK. Right now though, it feels rough.
I am so sad….. I think I am going to be depressed.
Yeah, we’re trying to stay optimistic, but they definitely Fantasy’d 40K. Bummer. Hopefully it will grow on us with time.
This HURTS tournaments hard. Wound allocation and premeasuring will add SOOOO much time; random rolling will piss so many people off, allies = huh?; the “need,” for terrain and how that affects tournament setup. UGHhhhhhhh.
Wound allocation is the BIGGEST problem. Ugggggh I’ve seen how individual save rolls affect time. A five or six turn game turns into a three or four turn game (assuming 2:15).
Yeah, the major TO’s in the country are going to have a meeting about what to expect with the new edition and how we’re all going to handle the changes as a group. It is a bit weird though, how do we handle all of this randomness? The terrain? Games are going to take ages.
Should’ve seen it coming when GW nerfed tournament support. I hear warmachine is good. Lots of players been picking it up locally. To bad the models and general asthetics blow.
Trying to remain optimistic, but if TO’s don’t find a way to make it work, I will drop 40k in all likelihood. I simply am not a “casual,” gamer. I play to meet new people and face different armies in a competitive setting. Not to play out the same game against my same friend with the same army once a week.
Yeah, it is a bit bleak right now. We will find a way to make it work. Too many people like tournament gaming to let is just vanish. We’re having a phone meeting next week to discuss what’s what.
But yeah, there are some other great games out there right now. Warmachine, Dropzone Commander looks promising, Heavy Gear is awesome. There are replacements is that’s what it comes to.
1500 will be the new tourney level. This helps with the time problem and the crazy ally combo problem all in one step. No way Tau can fit Lysander, Hammernators, and a LR at 1500 etc., etc.
Only enough room for an IG platoon and a Hyrda. I.e. Allies will be used for what they should be: filling in a weakness, making more army builds viable.
Smart people won’t ever bank on getting an assault off. Welcome to shootierthanbefore and thethirtyminutemovementphase 40k.
It could still be fun, though. I’m rambling. Just got back from the last 5th ed tournament which was really fun, and this just seems like they totally changed my favorite game into something foreign. I must be an old man now, what with the resistance to change.
I feel you man, almost every single player that has come in and tried the rules has said the same thing. WTF? Everyone hates wound allocation, some people like challenges (those with good HtH units) others hate it, as you would expect. The randomness is pretty much a universal turnoff.
We’ll see. The movement phase will take bloody ages though, it will be so lame and full of micromanagement. We’ll see how it pans out, but I can honestly say I feel pretty disheartened right now.
As for tournaments, yeah, the points will have to go down. No way we can run high points with how slow the game is going to get.
Did anyone out there get blurry miniature pictures in your copy of 6th edition, or am I just a special Canuck. I got about six plus pages of xenos pages that are blurry. It is really disappointing but shrugs what do you do.
TTFN
One of our customers got a page with blurry rules. Sucks. GW is really good about customer support though, if you call and let them know, you’ll get a new book.
I enjoyed the podcast but a little supprised that your review so far is the rules are not good,
I love the new rules, its a refreshing change from 5th edition. I love the fact that the game is more dinamic with attacks coming from all angles. Objectives not being sertion leads to that cinomatic feel of the mission changing part way though.
wound allocation can easily be solved by fast dice rolling. worked that out last night.
I know some people don’t like random charges but before it was a case of move up move up and charge now there is a chance that your best laied plans may not work. Which goes beck to being more cinomatic,
Got to say smiles all round at my club
We like most of the rules changes a lot, but wound allocation stinks as it slows things down so much. I am also not at all into random charges.
That is great that your club likes them though, good for you guys! I think we will come around to it, but those two rules I really dislike and they are big ones.
Wall of text incoing!
I don’t understand the issue with the sudden focus on the added ‘randomness’ 40K has gained. Have we all forgotten the entire game was already random? If you wanted to kill an enemy model you’d randomly shot, randomly wound, randomly make saves and (the big one) randomly select a bolter dude to die instead of the heavy/commander. The added and changed random rules are just in keeping with the already well established theme of the game (and every other table top game for that matter).
This ties me into the wound allocation rules. Personally I like them, they add a much more needed depth of meta and (yes this might seem taboo but…) much more thought will be placed into arranging your units to get at the sides of an enemy unit to punch into the heart of the units special weapon models. People seem so concerned about people putting that terminator captain at the front of a unit to soak fire, but now this may seem crazy but what about manoeuvring your unit to shoot at the side or back of that unit? What’s this, using tactics? Sacrilege! Even a heavy and rapid fire weapons can move and fire now, so this is even more viable (albeit on 6’s for the heavy).
On the subject of glancing vehicles to death, if you are really being harassed that badly by that many glances that your mech is being blown up then perhaps your still trying to use 5th tactics (or lack thereof) in a 6th edition revolution.
Lastly, the random psychic power, warlord traits, charges etc. Both you and your opponent must comply with these rules so (on paper) the issue has, well, no issues. Now of course your Ork mob will be bogged down by crazy low charge distances and not make it into combat sometimes. But do you also get this bummed out then you sometimes roll badly and a combat squad of 5 marines fends off your Ork mob? Random is random; we should all be used to this by now. The only way to think about it is you both will and will not make the roll.
The game will be slower to play at least at first and maybe there on. We will all learn ways to do things a little faster and hopefully find more fun in the new rules.
Learn to love the ‘quirks’ of 6th, t will be with us for a long time.
You roll dozens to hundreds of to hit rolls in a game. The odds have a chance to even out. How many charges do you declare in a game?
See the problem? A case study gets more and more accurate with a larger sample size.
You make good points. My issue is that the game was random enough, now it feels like just a total game of chance. The new rules slow things down a TON, games are going to take so much longer.
Vehicles dying quicker isn’t about skill, it’s about luck, there isn’t much you can do about it. You can’t play them differently really, just accept that they will die much faster. Tactics won’t stop this from happening, unfortunately, it is just a core game mechanic that has changed. Unless you hide your vehicles, you can’t stop the increased damage.
The wound allocation rules really are bad, IMO. They slow the game down and they are an invitation for gaming the system with range and tank sniping (which people HATED in 4th ed). And things like Paladins and Nob got even better and can still play wound allocation tricks, it’s dumb. The problem of wound allocation tricks in 5th didn’t get fixed and now it takes longer to move and wound units, I see it as a pretty big failure, personally. It created more problems than it solved.
The rest of the rules I largely like (apart from mysterious terrain and objectives which are lame, IMO but YMMV).
All that talk of meta-changing army comp and reworking “epic charge tactics” sounds really nice and optimistic, but it will never happen at the high end of competitive tournaments. The really good players don’t let you get things like epic charges from all sides and perfect cover-less salvoes, They work their armies to break and abuse poorly written rules. The meta will only shift to the units that best abuse this set of rules, and unfortunately, those abuses are looking to be much bigger and more widespread than in the last edition.
For example, and please correct me if I am wrong, if you add a termie WG model to your grey hunter unit and pop the wolf banner on the turn you get charged by a full unit of BA assault marines(a med class assault unit), as long as he is in contact with a model striking at initiate 4, you essentially have a 2+ re-rollable that can soak up all the wounds from the BA wound pool, or you have to waste your srg popping a challenge(that he wont win). I think that unit comes in at a cool 200+ some change in points. I cant see that being fair.
I will say that I think assault jump pack units did get better on the whole. With the ability to re-roll the charge distance, hammer of wrath, and the ability to take armor saves against failed dangerous terrain tests they seem like they will be able to more reliably dish out pain. Its also nice that they can slaughter any vehicles that get in the way without much difficulty.
IDK. I think the competitive leadership in the 40k community can re-write the shitty parts of the rules in such a way that we can keep our beloved sport, I think it will just take some time.
Then simply don’t charge that unit of grey hunter with the termie WG model.
Thats a point i didn’t really touch on but Madivals article on the front page did. In regard to him taking 2 monoliths in his armies: “People would still dump everything into them at times, though. The obvious solution often escaped people”.
This is the same as the grey hunter analogy. It may be frustrating to kill them in CC, but as Madival points out, just don’t engage them on their terms in the first place.
There will of course be times where it would be unavoidable for other rules and situations and not to sound harsh but just deal with it.
I deffinatly agree that tourny players take advantage of cheese filled rules with army building to get an advantage sometimes but this is not a bad thing. Anyone can do it and thats just the point, if it means beating them, stoop to their level if needs be. After all your at a tournament not a friendly game at a mates house, all is fair in love and war.
Well… hope that works out for you man. I don’t really see it working out that way, but who knows, maybe this stuff will eventually balance out. I really hope it does.
Hope for the best, expect the worst 😀
Back of book lists Nobz and paladins as characters meaning they are free to LOS for each other and still break wound allocation, except now they don’t need to worry about having unique gear……ugh…..
Wow.. Good eye. I hope that doesn’t seriously work like that. Surely you can’t have a squad of characters.
They all get precision strike as well? …
We must be missing something here, but I don’t see it.
OK, glad I bought the Psychic power cards because I can’t for the life of me find the table that says who gets what in the BRB. Reecius, Well run Apoc Game good sir! My son and I had an absolute blast and will be making this our monthly Tradition
We’re glad you guys had fun! We look forward to the next one and yeah I agree, those psychic cards are really useful.
I don’t feel that this is a bad edition. I feel that people will have to make more decisions on the fly. People will have to master a lot more then point long fangs at target and fire.
I still think people will be pointing long fangs and firing (shooting got better), hahaha, but yeah, this isn’t a bad edition, just some bad rules that really irk us. I like most of it.