In part two of this article, Reece digs into the Space marine units.
Part 1 of this article covering the Imperial Guard units can be seen here.
The Space Marines got some serious love in this book, and also some of the units that are causing the most commotion.
The first offender, is the beautiful Contemptor Pattern Dreadnought.
Beyond being an amazing model, what does this unit bring to the table top?
He’s an AV13/12/11 vehicle with a 5++ to shooting and a 6++ in combat. WS5, and fleet of foot, and the option to add another DCCW means he’s no slouch in combat, either.
You can also equip him with a plethora of weapons, most of which are good, although his stock standard twin Heavy Bolter isn’t going to do that much on it’s own. He cna take a twin Las Cannon, a Plasma Cannon, a twin Auto Cannon, twin heavy flamer, multi-melta, or second DCCW with all the usual options. He can also take the very cool Kheres pattern Assault Cannon (assault 6) or Heavy Conversion Beamer, which he must remain stationary to fire, but is up to Str10 Ap1 large blast.
Some of the more exotic kit includes a Plasma Blaster, which is an 18″ str 7 ap2 weapon that goes in the fist of his DCCW, or a Graviton Gun, which is really cool. It is a Str test or suffer a wound, and glances a vehicle on a 5+ at 18″. However, the real appeal of the weapon to me is the fact that the template remains in place after firing and that area becomes Difficult/Dangerous terrain. Sweet! Board control is always a good thing.
You also have the option for a Cyclone Missile Launcher, just as with a Terminator which is awesome.
Beyond extra armor and a searchlight, you can also give the big guy a targeting array which makes him BS5. Nice!
Only Marines, Dark Angels, and Templars can take him as an Elites choice.
Sounds great, doesn’t it?
Sure is, but he costs a boat load, too. Base of 175, and for the way I would run him (Kheres Assault Cannon, Graviton Gun) he’ll run you 210! That is pretty cheap, too. You can make him significantly more expensive if you start ratcheting up the extras.
Final verdict: awesome unit from a model and fluff perspective, but too pricey for most competitive builds. For firepower, you can get more of the same on cheaper platforms. For assault, the Ironclad does the same thing much cheaper, and only slightly less effectively.
Blood Angels Contemptor Pattern Dreadnought
Same as above, only with more Blood and Angels.
Seriously though, he is an assault oriented Conetmptor with the option to take a Magna Grapple, Blood Talons, a Melta Gun in one of the Fists or one of the standard shooting weapons of the standard Contemptor plus a Frag Cannon but without any of the relic options.
Final Verdict: Again, as above, the unit is good, and a ton of fun, but you can use a standard BA Furioso Dread and get the same or better performance.
Space Wolves Contemptor
Same as the standard apart from a few Wolfy additions and again, no relic weapons. He can take a Wolf Tail Talisman or a Wolf Tooth Necklace and must take a Saga. His Sagas are pretty cool, granting such abilities as Furious Charge, Counter Attack, or +1 on the Damage Chart against enemy walkers in HtH.
Final Verdict: Again, very cool unit, and in a Wolf list actually offers something they don’t already have: a true assault Dread. If you are looking for that in your list, here he is!
Contemptor Mortis Pattern Dreadnought
This guy easily looks the coolest of probably any other unit in the game, IMO!
The Mortis has BS5 instead of WS and loses fleet, but gains an additional gun arm. He retains the invulnerable save and increased blast radius if he explodes as the other Conetmpetors. He does have the same standard weapon options and comes in standard at 155pts.
Not bad.
You can make some absolutely awesome looking combinations with this guy, like that above. Dual Plasma Cannons looks bad ass, too, but pretty much anything on this platform does.
The real heavy hitter though, IMO, is the two twin Las Cannon and Cyclone Missile Launcher. That’s a lot of hurt on a move and shoot platform at 48″. However, he also weighs in at 220pts!
Land Raider cost. You can get the same amount of firepower cheaper in Typhoons and Razorbacks that while individually less durable, can fire at more targets, pack in more shots, and have to each be targeted individually to be destroyed where a single shot can destroy the Mortis.
Again, this guy is only available to Marines, Dark Angels and Templars.
Final Verdict: Awesome unit that looks the business, but costs too many points to be a truly competitive choice. This is a unit you take because he looks sexy and still packs a mean punch.
Siege Dreadnought
The Seige Dread is my favorite pick in the book for Marines. For the points, you get a lot of Dreadnought. He weighs in at 120pts, and comes with a Flamestorm Cannon, Extra Armor, and a DCCW that has a built in Heavy Flamer and an awesome special rule: +D6 on the armor pen roll against stationary vehicles and any penetrating hit(s) in the assault phase cause all models inside the vehicle to be hit by a Heavy Flamer! Wow! F you, Battlewagon Orks!
This guy is an Elite choice for any Marines but Blood Angels.
Final Verdict: For the price, this guy is amazing. Pop him in a Drop Pod, or a Lucius Patter Drop Pod and let him go crazy. Awesome unit, well worth the points and one I would take in a competitive build, no question.
Land Raider Achilles
The much derided Land Raider Achilles. This guy gets a lot of hat eon the net because he is hard to kill.
Before we break this down, let’s give you the straight dope on this model. 325pts base….OK. It should be good.
Next, is has 2 twin Multi-Meltas and a Thunderfire Cannon, as well as Extra Armor and a special rule that allows it to ignore the Melta and Lance special rules, as well as a -1 on the damage table against penetrating hits.
It can also take a Siege Shield, which allows it to ignore dangerous terrain.
Is this really the game breaking unit a lot of folks would have you believe?
Well, check out this battle report to see it in action for yourself.
It honestly isn’t as OP as people say. It is crazy expensive, 335pts for the standard build, and doesn’t put out a proportional amount of firepower for it’s points cost. It only holds 6 models and isn’t an assault vehicle. Sure you can slap a few Scouts in it to make it scoring, but still, a Land Raider isn’t so big that if you assault it from the sides you can’t contest the objective under it.
And just how tough is it? Not as unkillable as people say. A glance against it is the exact same as it is against any other Land Raider.
I saw the example of a BS3 Las Cannon having a less than 1% chance of one shot, one kill against it. First off, you don’t have to kill the dumb thing to take it out of play. Second of all, here is the actual math on it: 1/2 * 1/6 * 1/6 =1/72 which is 1.4% for a kill shot.
Sounds pretty tough, right?
What are the odds of a one shot, one kill with a BS3 Las Cannon against a regular Land Raider?
1/2 * 1/6 * 1/3 = 1/36 which is 2.8%
Wowzers, it is 1.4% more resilient. Color me unimpressed.
Every army in the game has a way to deal with this incredibly expensive tank. So you can’t melta it to death? So what. Play around it for crying out loud. It is good, yes, but putting this model on the table doesn’t equal an auto win. For the best armies in the game, they have better unit sin their normal dexes. Long Fangs are better for the points by a long shot.
At any rate, everyone is entitled to their opinions, but the hype on this thing is way overblown.
Final Verdict: A good tank that costs a boat load of points. I think it is completely fairly priced and in no way breaks the game.
Caestus Assault Ram
Here is where people should be worried! The Caestus Assault Ram, IMO, is far better than the Achilles. It is still very expensive for an AV13 vehicles, but wow does this thing pack a punch. 13/13/11, 275pts, Fast Skimmer that can carry 10 models (including 10 Terminators) and it is an assault vehicle. It can also go Super Sonic giving it a 36″ Turbo Boost. Already, without anything else, this thing is rocking.
Now let’s add in the special rules, shall we?
They call it a Ram for a reason. It is made to smash into things and destroy them. It gets 2d6 take the highest for armor pen and +1 on the damage table when it does ram something (wow!) and a 5++ to it’s front arc, including from any damage it takes in a ram attacks. OK, we get it. Pack it with a nasty squad and literally ram it down the other guy’s throat.
But wait, that’s not all! It also comes with a Magna-Melta, normal melta weapon profile, 18″ LARGE BLAST! Holy crap on a cracker, this thing is nuts.
Lastly, you can also give it Frag Assault Launchers, a Teleport Homer and it has a single fire 36″ st6 ap4 heavy 4 small blast weapon.
Final Verdict: This thing is the business, pure and simple. But again, for the points cost, it should be! I love the unit and think it really adds a lot to a Marine build (available to all but Blood Angels) and is a great choice for a competitive build.
Lucius Pattern Dreadnought Drop Pod
So here is the other big offender in the book. And again, the fear of this unit is way out of proportion with what it actually does.
Standard Drop Pod rules minus any extra weapons, 65pts and takes up a Fast Attack Slot.
The big thing that worries people: Dreads can assault out of it, but if they roll a 1, they become immobilized.
Totally fair, IMO.
But it can get a first turn assault! I can hear you all saying.
So what? Scout Bikers, Shrike Marines and Deff Koptas can already do that, cheaper, better, and more reliably. Not exactly game breaking units, are they?
I, unlike a lot of the people who complain about this guy, have actually played against this unit (with the old, better rules) in several tournaments and he is no big deal. You KNOW when he is coming in, and probably where. Just plan for it. Reserve, bubble wrap, offer up sacrificial lambs, etc. Don’t forget, this thing could also scatter out of range. People seem to gloss over that fact.
This is a predictable unit, so plan around it. And with a 1/6 chance to totally backfire, you can’t rely on this unit in a 5-8 round tournament. In one or more games, he mos tlikely will fail you in a big way. And, you take up 2 KP and 2 FOC slots to pull this trick off. Not at all overpowered, IMO.
Final Verdict: A unit that does something that is already done and yet somehow this upsets people. Big deal, IMO. It costs a lot to take this unit (Typhoons are amazing FA choices for Marines) and isn’t totally reliable. Completely fine and good to go as is for competitive play, although I wouldn’t take it in a competitive list. There are better choices.
[Sidetrack]
Reece, keep the reviews coming! If I haven’t said it enough, I’ll say it again. I enjoy your guys’ website a ton, and I’m sure I’d play exclusively at Frontline Gaming if I lived in Cali. Your blog posts are interesting, informative, and cover a bunch of topics that I’m interested in, and you guys come off as very enthusiastic about the game/hobby in your videos. I know how hard it is to “run” a gaming group, a blog, and a forum, and to try and keep everyone interested in the hobby, so I know sometimes a “thank you” goes a long way. So thanks! As a regular visitor to this sight, I personally would like to see you continue the battle reports (which you’re doing fine on), and maybe some tactics articles/videos for advanced players. When I watch your video batreps, sometimes I can’t help but wonder why you guys build your lists in certain ways, or why you moved left instead of right on turn three, so I do appreciate the insight you guys have tried to give. Keep it up!
[/Sidetrack]
Now on to my main post.
I completely agree that the Achilles is not game-breaking, and you can easily spend your points on more efficient units. However, I’d like to play Devil’s Advocate for the Achilles for a second, and break down my opinion on why I think it’s a very strong unit choice. I may come off a bit edgy in the below but I’m seriously not trying to. I’m just attempting to defend the thing.
1. Ignoring Lance is huge. One of the things that was starting to fade out of existence was the “Blessed Hull” rule that old Grey Knights used to have in Codex: Daemonhunters, and that Black Templars still have. Aside from Monstrous Creatures and Melta-weapons, AV14 has always been scared of Lance weapons because it invalidates their cost (we pay crazy points to get that high of an AV on all sides). With this rule, you practically shut down Eldar and DO shut down Dark Eldar unless either army happens to land some Haywire Grenade hits which isn’t very likely. We had a dude basically break down mentally and emotionally because a Black Templar player was shoving his Blessed Hull Land Raider Crusader down his throat for six turns. I would NOT want to be a Dark Eldar player playing against this.
2. Ignoring Melta is huge-er. It’s no secret that Melta weapons rule 5th Edition, so ignoring most people’s answer to high AV is kind of a big deal. Yes, Monstrous Creatures, Haywire Grenades, Scarabs, Vindicare Assassins, and a few other options are quick and easy ways to deal with AV14 but Meltaguns are the special weapon du jour in most armies. Having one less “answer” to this vehicle to worry about makes a huge difference IMO.
3. Penetrating Hits are -1 on the Damage Table. Yet another slap-in-the-face to Melta Weapons and the abundance of S8 in the game. Only being able to glance with Melta (and actually getting that -2 on the chart), or getting a -3 on the chart with regular S8 means it should be fairly functional/mobile for most of the game.
4. The Thunderfire Cannon is an awesome weapon. The only reason you don’t see it spammed in every Space Marine list is because of how fragile the unit is. Being only one of three “Artillery”-type units in the game (and only being AV10, and rarely ever able to take cover saves), it is extremely vulnerable to even basic ranged weapons like Bolters. Now, you put that on a platform that is taking the place of the Monolith as one of the most durable vehicles in the game, and you’ve got a Thunderfire Cannon that can survive long enough to be the pain in the rear that it is.
5. It comes with Extra Armor. If running my Stormraven has taught me anything, it’s that on an asset like this you need Extra Armor. Being able to still move is important for many obvious reasons, but the kicker is when you combine that with Power of the Machine Spirit. Got Stunned? Naw, you’re just Shaken, which means nothing because now you’re moving 6-12″ and still firing a weapon off.
6. Sponson Twin-Linked Multi-Meltas. Back to the Stormraven; I have played maybe 20 games with it while it’s armed with a Twin-Linked Multi-Melta, and I have never failed to kill a Land Raider (or some other juicy target) in the first turn. While that’s widely due to being able to go Flat Out and fire it, having two TLMMs is VERY scary. Unfortunately that means that you’ll have to pick between which weapon(s) you want to fire on the move, but this thing shouldn’t ever stay still. What you want to shoot your Thunderfire Cannon at is probably not what you want to fire your two re-rollable 24″ S8 AP1 Melta shots at. I believe the key to making the vehicle work is being extremely aggressive with it. It should start at the front of your deployment zone and move no less than 6″ every turn so that you can ensure you constantly have a target-rich environment. It’s armed to the teeth and you need to make use of its weaponry since you paid for it in-full.
7. It can take a Siege Shield. Ignore all Difficult/Dangerous Terrain? Yes please! With shenanigans coming from the new Necron codex and even other Thunderfire Cannons, this is just too good to pass up for a unit this important.
8. You cite the SW vs IG battle report where you playtest the Achilles as evidence showing it’s not invulnerable. As someone pointed out in a post on that batrep, any vehicle that gets its main weapon blown off in the first turn is of course useless. Let me be clear: it is nowhere near impossible to annihilate this thing. I hinted at some of the answers above. However, you’ve got to look at how it fits into the current meta and how tough all those little rules make it. Aside from a poor showing in one game where it actually wasn’t destroyed, I do believe you’ll see in future battles that it’s a lot cooler than you may initially think. Try it against Dark Eldar, Space Marines, a rematch vs IG, and other common armies. I promise it will start to show its usefulness.
9. Lets look at the cost of this thing very closely. The base cost of a Land Raider is 240 points in most books. With Extra Armor it’s 255. So, we’re only 80 points off of the cost of the Achilles.
Things that would theoretically lessen the cost of the Achilles:
-6-model Transport Capacity instead of 10-16
-No Assault Ramp
Things that would theoretically increase the cost of the Achilles:
-A FRAKKIN 100-pt THUNDERFIRE CANNON!
-TLMM Sponsons (an upgrade to the TL-Lascannons for sure)
-Ignore Melta
-Ignore Lance
-Penetrating Hits get -1 on the Vehicle Damage Chart
-Comes with Extra Armor
Do you think 80 points pays for the upgrades? If they were itemized points-wise do you think people would have less sticker-shock?
SO, the Achilles certainly isn’t an “auto-win” unit, and those who think so aren’t paying attention. No single unit, or group of units, or heck even lists net you an “auto-win”, especially not a 335-point tank. The hype is definitely overblown as you put it, but about the wrong things. I think this vehicle is more about firepower than survivability, but it obviously has that in spades. I do believe in the right army builds with the right tactics, this thing could be really really nasty.
However, JESUS BALLS that Caestus Assault Ram is INSANO! Your “Holy crap on a cracker” expression made me laugh but that’s exactly right! That thing worries me…
Hey, TheDave,
First off, no worries about disagreeing with us. It doesn’t bother us at all, in fact, we like hearing other points of view! We don’t feel that our ideas or opinions are infallible, and a good discussion involves multiple points of view.
You make all valid points, and I see where people are coming from with that. The thing is, a good list shouldn’t rely on Melta weapons. The best lists have a mix of weapons to deal with high AV threats. If you entire strategy for armor is melta or lance weapons, you’re shooting yourself in the foot. Haywire grenades, las cannons, etc. should be in a true all around list.
The Achilles in our test game has under-performed in all but one game, and in that game it wasn’t an all-star, it just actually killed something.
What I will say, is that it never died in any game. That is because the other player incapacitated it and then ignored it.
I think there are far worse units in the game now than the Achilles. I know that others may disagree, which is fine, but I know that if I saw it across the table from me, I wouldn’t sweat it at all.
Thanks for the intelligent comment though, you really do make a lot of good points.
Hey Zero-Comp dudes,
The problem with that Batrep with the Achilles was that it wasnt properly dployed at all. I understand that it was a test of its durability by only placing it and Bjorn on the table alone against an entire IG list (read big guns), but that shouldvery rarely be the way this thing is deployed. How often do we discuss target saturation and target priority in our list buids and deployments? Quite often. Think if you take the Achilles and 2 Vindicators. What does even an IG list shoot at? The Achilles is a psychological unit just like the Vindicator. Flank an Achilles with 2 Vindi’s and watch a list scramble to stay more than 24″ away. Throw in some drop pod dreads and you have a ton of threats out there. The Achilles isn THE answer; its just a tool in your belt, right? Some gamers just seem to get really bent out of shpae by it.
On another point, Adepticon just came out with its tournament rules and it WILL allow Imperial Armour vehicles. You guys were at the forefront of the tournament scene by being one of the first to get their tournaent rules out there, and you absorbed some fire for your decision to allow GW-sanctioned rulesets into your tourny. Kudos to you guys. This shows that the tournament scene will not be bullied by players afraid of change, when ALL the tournaments start supporting the GW-Sanctioned rules. Like it or not, these are the rules now and its great that the tourny scene supports it.
Hey Joel,
Yeah, the Achilles was pretty much thrown at the enemy in that game. Like you said, we were just trying to prove how tough it was or wasn’t. In other test games, it was played better, but really never did that much to get excited about. It simply doesn’t put out that much firepower for the points.
It is hard as hell to kill, but killing it isn’t always the answer to it, you know?
Yeah, we were trying to push the envelope a bit with this, and popular opinion when against it, but we feel that in time (and a short amount of time at that) IA units will become commonplace.
Forge World is not allowed in Adepticon’s 40k Championship tournament.
The other tournaments always had forge world available.
Oh, a point on the seige dread plus lucius drop pod: I run a Vulkan list usually, and I honestly rarely use let alone fill my FA FOC slot. That being said, pairing these 2 for a first turn assault on a transport filled with squishy troops (i.e.: IG, DE, Eldar, Tau, you know everything not in power armour) can possibly net 2 kill points on turn 1. Yea, I like that. Adds some flavor to the DropPod army. And, it makes sense. Non-power armor armies should fear it.
Yeah, the Seige dread is amazing! That jumped out at me as the best points efficiency purchase in the book, by far. That thing comes with a LOT for 120pts. I already have one painted, so I am stoked to use it with these newer, and much better (and more fun) rules.
First off, I’d like to second TheDave’s thanks. You guys run a great site and are always polite and informative. I love some of your more unorthodox (compared to my local scene and other online sources) methods and lists.
That’s a great run down of all of the Space Marine units. I confess, I totally ignored the Siege Dread once I saw the limited upgrades, but that thing is fantastic!
The Caestus is crazy good too. Saw the bland model and low transport capacity and moved on by. That thing is super beastly! Never noticed all of the potential for damage.
And in regards to the Achilles, I am in full agreement for more match-ups with it. Also, does anyone have any instances of it doing anything awesome? I hear how fantastic it is on paper, and I like the idea of it because it was designed by the Imperial Fists, but I’d like to hear of games that it actually did something awesome in or turned around.
Also, TheDave, I intend to poke around your blog a bit for info, but I was wondering if you’d throw some Stormraven tactics my way or do a blog article on them. I just won a SR in a contest recently (http://agentlemansones.blogspot.com/2011/12/killzone-giveaway-winner-1.html) and it has me looking at possilby starting Grey Knights. I was curious how you work it into your builds and how you’ve used it with such success since I often read everyone’s whining about it.
And finally, I wanted to recommend the Killzone contest to you guys at Frontline. It’s in it’s last week, but it’s a great give away for beta testing the new Killzone rule set. Perhaps you guys can find a few more week spots before the rules become official. Check out the contest info and rules links here, http://agentlemansones.blogspot.com/ 🙂
The Killzone contest, that was news to us, we’ll check it out for sure, sounds fun!
Yeah, the Achilles in our test games (3 so far) has honetly been mediocre at best. Nothing to get too upset about, but perhaps that is because we haven’t seen it’s true potential. When I do know is that everyone on our team feels that it is fairly costed. Most of us wouldn’t even take it in a truly competitive list, we feel taking more units with more firepower would be a better investment.
I can definitely post my thoughts for Stormraven tactics. You want me to post here, or post them on my blog or do a youtube video? I have two other youtube videos on the Stormraven, but after a ton of games with it I think even those two vids are out-dated lol.
Let me know (here, my blog, my youtube). Thanks!
I’d take them anywhere you like. Just do whatever is easiest or whatever you think would be the most fun. 🙂
I just hear a lot of whining and complaining about it going down first turn or not getting it’s troops to where they need to go. Just want someone’s take on it who enjoys it and has had some success with it. It seems like a cool unit and I’m looking forward to using mine, just want to be smart about how I do so. 🙂
Okay no problem! I’ll post it on my blog probably tonight or tomorrow. I’ve got some junk to do this afternoon/evening but afterwards I can write up my thoughts for sure. Thanks for checking it out, I appreciate the audience lol!
Well I thank you in turn for being so receptive. Look forward to checkin it out. 🙂
And wouldn’t you know, right when I’m excited to and available to type that tactics article up, my computer starts flipping out. I’m not sure if I can get it fixed before I take off for wrestling. I’ll work on it the second I get home though (assuming I can get this issue worked out). If not, I’ll hop on my laptop and bang it out (this is my phone).
Thanks in advance for the patience! (And FML lol)
I think the Mortis Pattern Contemptor Dreadnaught with 2 assault cannons is a very good buy at 180 points. 12 Strength 6 rending shots at BS5 is very nice.
The Chaos Contemptor Dreds are nice too, but I guess we will see them in part 3.
As far as the Land Raider Achilles goes, in the batrep you posted it went up against the best army for killing it, (Mech IG) and they could not kill it with Manticores and Vendettas. Also you are only looking at what it kills as a way to measure it’s effectiveness, but there are other ways to earn it’s points like eating a ton of firepower that can be directed at the rest of the army, Also the fact that it never gives up a kill point, and it can hold a scoring unit safe inside and just park on an objective is valuable.
Those are some cool ways of looking at the Achilles. 🙂
The Mortis is good, but not better than its 180 pt cost, in my opinion.
We have tried the Achilles against a number of armies, and so far, it is underwhelming every time.
I agree that it is very good, no doubt about that. But, it is not out of line with its points cost, IMO. I think it is just fine the way it is, honestly. Can it win the game? Sure, but for that points tag, it should. One lucky las cannon shot and it’s done though. People look past that.
Don’t worry about it. In the process of fixing a couple of computers, myself. I know how it can be. Got your RSS so I’ll know when you do get around to it. 🙂
The Assault Ram has a lot of good rules and seems to be very powerful, however do the marines have the units that can take advantage of it? And will that unit be almost 700pts riding in the Caestus. This vehicle suffers in it’s lack of ranged weapons. It needs to get close to have any effect on the game and that close to the enemy opens it up to incoming fire directed at it’s sides.
The Siege Dread strikes me as situational at best. It needs to get close to the enemy to be effective and it doesn’t have access to a Storm raven. The most common transport it is likely to encounter is a 5-man razorback and the heavy flamer hits don’t seem as impressive against that.
The Contemptors look very cool, but Chaos needs them more than loyalists do and the Chaos ones are more expensive. The Mortis Contemptor with assault cannons looks powerful, but it will have to get close to be within range. Will it get a shot off against Necrons and their Solar Pulse before it gets hoot with scarabs or wraiths?
I think you make excellent points, Gen. Fred. All the units are good, but they aren’t as overwhelming as a lot of people would have you believe.
I think a lot of folks are looking at what these units COULD do, and not at what they will most likely do. But hey, that is everyone’s right.
I am not a big fan of the assault ram, but dropping Logan and 9 Wolf Guard terminators into the middle of an army sounds like it could be interesting.
Also everyone is looking at these things like you can take only one of them. I would like to see a couple of the dreads and a couple of the land raiders. Expensive yes, but they would have a couple of cheap scout squads in them and I would like to see what they could do.
Good point. You could take two Achilles in a list.
However, unless you play infinitely small objectives, you can assault an Achilles and contest an objective underneath it, unless it is literally in the very back corner of the board. Even then, you should be able to get a model within 3″ of an objective in most cases to contest it.
We tried the Caestus and found that it was incredible. We packed it with 10 Black Templar Assault Terminators and just shoved it down the other player’s throat. It was so good. You put tremendous pressure on your opponent rapidly.
Not sure if it is up yet as a battle report, but I would LOVE to see that thing in action! MAKE IT SO! XD